stevenrasnick

Health System [Medics?]

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I've been reading a lot of good debates... keep up the good work guys! I have a feeling all the feedback will influence the devs during the development cycle.

 

I'm surprised, though, that health hasn't been debated yet, so let me be the first to start:

 

How do you guys feel about Health Systems? I know most of us are opposed to Regen Health, so I was just wondering what people would prefer. A numbered health (1-100) sorta like Half-Life? Or green, yellow, and red from the GR series? A health bar? Or skip all of that and just sort of know that if you get shot a few times, you will die?

 

Personally, I think it would be cool if there were no actual visual of health. If you get shot in the arm, the screen goes dark with the intense pain.... same with the leg, except you also limp. Your accuracy greatly decreases, even after just one hit. If you get shot in the legs twice maybe you should fall down, but still be able to fire your weapon (with a huge decrease in accuracy, of course), sort of like GRAW 2, and a medic can come to your aid. Only for limb wounds though, I don't like how in Vegas, you could just keep reviving your teamates. If you get hit in the abdomen, you're down till a medic gets to you. Chest or Head? You're outta here.

 

Anyone else? What do you guys think?

Edited by stevenrasnick

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The best way to depict health must surely be through an impact on your characters ability.

 

One of the most immersive aspects of OGR was the almost physical impact that is transmitted to the player when they are hit.

 

If you had just spent several minutes crawling stealthily through the bushes thinking you have gone unnoticed the shock of round hitting you caused you to physically jump!

 

After being hit you need to feel the effects of your injuries, slower movement speeds, reduced aiming ability etc.

 

As far as healing, IMHO the best way to go would be the ability to stabilise non lethal wounds. E.G. application of a field dressing to a limb wound will stop the character bleeding out but will not restore to normal fitness. Lack of stabilisation measures result in continued deteriorisation of the character.

 

In my mind a ?check injuries? button that brought up a body image showing a damage model would work and not clutter up the screen.

 

Are there any thoughts on a medic character? And if so in what capacity?

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i think medics who can temporarily stop some kind of "bleeding" like in AA might be good for SP, but none in MP. It just detracts from everything else. I also vote for no health bar or even colors. Pulse maybe...but I've never seen someone w/a healthbar in real life so, forget it.

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i think medics who can temporarily stop some kind of "bleeding" like in AA might be good for SP, but none in MP. It just detracts from everything else. I also vote for no health bar or even colors. Pulse maybe...but I've never seen someone w/a healthbar in real life so, forget it.

 

I think this is one of the areas where we as a group may fail to communicate well. SP and MP COOP should play the same way where as MP adversarial may well have different requirements. :thumbsup:

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After being hit you need to feel the effects of your injuries, slower movement speeds, reduced aiming ability etc.
Agreed.

 

As far as healing, IMHO the best way to go would be the ability to stabilise non lethal wounds. E.G. application of a field dressing to a limb wound will stop the character bleeding out but will not restore to normal fitness.
Exactly, I liked this in GRAW 2, even if you healed a teamate, he would be "in the red", the remainder of the round/his life. If he was shot just once again, he would be down for the count. If you could heal, I would only want it done this way.

 

Lack of stabilisation measures result in continued deteriorisation of the character.
Didn't think about this, but it makes sense, you couldn't bleed forever.

 

In my mind a “check injuries” button that brought up a body image showing a damage model would work and not clutter up the screen.
This is a good idea... speaking of HUD... well, that's for a different topic.

 

Are there any thoughts on a medic character? And if so in what capacity?
I go back and forth on a dedicated "medic" class of character. In my experience, nobody was ever a medic, but maybe I was playing with the wrong people. :lol: It would definitely make a need for good teamwork. Edited by stevenrasnick

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cobaka   

I would like to see where casualties have an impact on the campaign - say if you lose a particular skill like a demo guy, in a future mission maybe someone else could do the job but slower. And you have a fixed pool of characters, so if you go through the missions losing people, you might wind up alone in the last mission - or maybe can't even finish.

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I think there are some excellent points in this thread. Personally, I'm for a HUD-less health system in which you know you're hurt because you "feel" it. (sluggish movement/limp, vision/auditory impairment, etc)

 

When I think about the role of medics, stabilization for evacuation is what comes to mind. Not any kind of major injury "healing" per say. Medic attention that results in an incapacitated soldier immediately getting back in the fight seems pretty implausible to me.

 

Aside from the obvious moral obligation to do everything possible to increase the survivability of a wounded comrade, the important effect of medics is on the morale and cohesion of the unit/team. Your other squaddies wouldn't take to kindly to you letting a wounded soldier bleed out just because he couldn't contribute to mission anymore.

 

It may be a kind of "out there" idea, but it might be interesting to see some kind of morale/cohesion modeled in the game.

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cobaka   

Do you think it's plausible for an AI teammate (assuming there are teammates) to take the initiative to treat a fallen comrade if you don't?

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I would think that just sort of being effected by your health would be the best bet. Maybe when your shot in the arm, your accuracy will go down. Or if like you shoot too much recoil it automatically stops a second to re-aim and shoot again from the pain in your arm.

 

Also while going slower/ lower visibility maybe and sound. I just think if theirs a fixed number/ red green yellow type stuff someone will go camp more often knowing exactly how many more shots/ damage they can take.

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frozyn   

I like the idea of having no indicator of health except for game performance.

 

However, it will happen that when the game first comes out and people get a feel for this system, it will cause a lot of camping to occur, players thinking that one more shot could do them in. I think it would be ideal, for gameplay purposes, to have some sort of indicator let you know where you've been shot. It would be obvious to most that if you limp, you obviously got shot in the leg. But was it the foot? The Ankle? Femur? Knee? Getting shot in the foot isn't as mortally serious as taking a round straight through the bone marrow in your upper leg.

 

I think that some kind of indication system would contain rampant camping in the beginning. Although having it a part of the HUD wouldn't follow NORG principles, if you were actually shot, you'd be able to look quickly and check out where. In the event that the entire character model isn't rendered in the FPV, the proposed indicator would take over that role.

Edited by frozyn

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They could always do a sort of ghost recon type thing where when you pressed a display button it short of showed like a picture of a body (I think it's been a long time) and showed where you were seriously hurt.

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It is a realistic feature, but I think it would kind of be out of place to design their engine to let you pick up allies and move them around. I think that idea kind of goes past the realism that makes games good, and the extra features that aren't really needed but would be nice to have.

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I gotta disagree with Ryan about segregating the SP and MP... I mean if they are both built on NORG principles, then why should they be different? Gameplay features should be across the board.

 

I've gotta agree with Ryan, though, about not having a 'medic' class of character. Are soldiers trained to do basic aid, or does it have to be done by a medic? Maybe Hatchet can clear this up?

Edited by stevenrasnick

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MONOLITH   

The best way to depict health must surely be through an impact on your characters ability. One of the most immersive aspects of OGR was the almost physical impact that is transmitted to the player when they are hit. After being hit you need to feel the effects of your injuries, slower movement speeds, reduced aiming ability etc.

 

 

I think there are some excellent points in this thread. Personally, I'm for a HUD-less health system in which you know you're hurt because you "feel" it. (sluggish movement/limp, vision/auditory impairment, etc)

 

 

Yes.

 

HUD-less, and blatant physical effects.

 

That's my vote.

 

I don't like looking at something in the HUD that actually tells me "one more hit and you're done". Not only is it not NORG approved, but it detracts my attention from the gameplay.

 

Do you think it's plausible for an AI teammate (assuming there are teammates) to take the initiative to treat a fallen comrade if you don't?

 

 

It's certainly plausible. It would be the same GRAW 360 or Vegas system, without waiting for the player to trigger it.

 

Whether BFS chooses to go that route, is a whole 'nother matter.

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phil   

After being hit you need to feel the effects of your injuries, slower movement speeds, reduced aiming ability etc.

 

This is basically how Rainbow Six: Raven Shield did it and I like this setup. The thing is, regardless of where you got shot you would end up limping (reduced speed) and your reticule would bloom at the slightest movement (reduced aim).

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stew   

Are there any thoughts on a medic character? And if so in what capacity?

 

Why is there a need for a medic character persay, if all thats going to be treatable are minor wounds there isn't a need for one since all Specical Forces are well trained in treating wounds in the field - you wouldn't have one medic only for him to get shot and everyone else be in the crapper with no one treat wounds :P

 

I like the HUD-less idea a lot, I think recent games have gone over the top with it, Vegas and GRAW in particular, it just gets in the way more than providing vital information.

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Are there any thoughts on a medic character? And if so in what capacity?

 

Why is there a need for a medic character persay, if all thats going to be treatable are minor wounds there isn't a need for one since all Specical Forces are well trained in treating wounds in the field - you wouldn't have one medic only for him to get shot and everyone else be in the crapper with no one treat wounds :P

 

I like the HUD-less idea a lot, I think recent games have gone over the top with it, Vegas and GRAW in particular, it just gets in the way more than providing vital information.

 

IMHO a medic would only work if he had the ability to stabalise the seriously injured to await casevac as opposed to rendering initial first aid to bleeding wounds. In real life all soldiers (UK) are trained in battlefield first aid but medics can go a few steps further, SF medics go further still, intubation, IVI, needle decompression of tension pneumothorax (three kings) opiate analgesia... it all depends where you want to stop.

 

first aid model = stop blood loss, soldier continues but at reduced ability.

 

medic model = prevent death - soilder ready for casevac - no points lost for death of team member.

 

 

thoughts?

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We are thinking of a few approaches to this topic, but honestly don't want to talk about it too much here as this is a public forum afterall.

 

We are most certainly watching ourselves though.

 

You never know who is lurking. :shifty:

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We are thinking of a few approaches to this topic, but honestly don't want to talk about it too much here as this is a public forum afterall.

 

We are most certainly watching ourselves though.

 

You never know who is lurking. :shifty:

It's cool John, I know a lot of things will be withheld from us until the timing is right for everyone involved... :shhhh:

 

I kinda just wanted to get the community's opinion on the matter.

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I would like to see where casualties have an impact on the campaign - say if you lose a particular skill like a demo guy, in a future mission maybe someone else could do the job but slower. And you have a fixed pool of characters, so if you go through the missions losing people, you might wind up alone in the last mission - or maybe can't even finish.

 

I like this dynamic mission concept.

 

As far as heatlh goes I think the OGR style was spot on in terms of how it affected a player......but i'm all for the addition of a Medic as long as its as realistic as possible. If it's going to be cheesy...forget it. If I see those paddles Ima scream...... :'(

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MONOLITH   

I like this dynamic mission concept.

 

I think I'm leaning this way myself. Remember OGR, where the character stats build up with each successful mission?

 

It's just enough to add a bit of an RPG element, so that it actually becomes important to not lose a guy, as opposed to games where you start with a team and it just doesn't matter what happens to them.

 

I prefer to feel the need to protect my men. It adds a whole new element and feeling to the game. If I develop a world class sniper half way through the campaign, then I know I have to make en extra effort to plan properly to protect him.

 

The extreme opposite is Gears of War. I could care less if my AI buddy goes down, he'll magically get up again as soon as I clear the area.

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I like this dynamic mission concept.

 

I think I'm leaning this way myself. Remember OGR, where the character stats buld up with each successful mission?

 

It's just enough to add a bit of an RPG element, so that it actually becomes important to not lose a guy, as opposed to games where you start with a team and it just doesn't matter what happens to them.

 

I prefer to feel the need to protect my men. It adds a whole new element and feeling to the game. If I develop a world class sniper half way through the campaign, then I know I have to make en extra effort to plan properly to protect him.

 

The extreme opposite is Gears of War. I could care less if my AI buddy goes down, he'll magically get up again as soon as I clear the area.

 

totaly agree on this one, i hated to lose a team member in OGR and even more so in R6 as the personel bios where there and you felt tht you knew your team members

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I like this dynamic mission concept.

 

I think I'm leaning this way myself. Remember OGR, where the character stats buld up with each successful mission?

 

It's just enough to add a bit of an RPG element, so that it actually becomes important to not lose a guy, as opposed to games where you start with a team and it just doesn't matter what happens to them.

 

I prefer to feel the need to protect my men. It adds a whole new element and feeling to the game. If I develop a world class sniper half way through the campaign, then I know I have to make en extra effort to plan properly to protect him.

 

The extreme opposite is Gears of War. I could care less if my AI buddy goes down, he'll magically get up again as soon as I clear the area.

 

 

We agree to. :thumbsup:

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