Novusordo

Tactical AND deliberate reload?

35 posts in this topic

Will GB feature the option to reload tactically, i.e let the magazine fall out the weapon on to the ground, and the option to reload normally where the magazine is stored back in the pouch, for use later?

 

One is quicker, the other is slower, but saves ammo.

 

Americas Army did this feature and it was ###### awesome, especially the sound the magzine made hitting the ground!

Edited by Novusordo

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Wrong video I think ledanek

 

you have the answer to your question at 5:25 novusordo

Edited by underfox

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Not sure what that meant, but I think the most logical (and easiest to implement) would be the following:

 

Magazine empty? Drop the magazines.

 

Magazine not empty? Store it.

 

Alternatively...

 

Magazine empty? Drop the magazines.

 

Magazine not empty? Store it.

 

Magazine close to empty (randomize at 5-8 rounds if 30 round magazine)? Drop it.

 

 

Often times doing an empty reload while dropping the magazine is quicker than doing a tactical reload while retaining the magazine. An example is here:

 

 

G3, AK and AR-15 all used and timed.

 

Also, this:

 

 

I bet he can do that quicker than he can a tactical reload.

Edited by Flogger23m

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Magazine empty? Drop the magazines.

 

Magazine not empty? Store it.

 

As of now this is how it works. Also, the non empty mags that go back into pouches will come back out in order of most rounds to least. So if you have mags with 1,5 and 10 rounds in them then the 10rnd will be used then 5 then 1.

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Magazine empty? Drop the magazines.

 

Magazine not empty? Store it.

 

Magazine close to empty (randomize at 5-8 rounds if 30 round magazine)? Drop it.

 

 

Often times doing an empty reload while dropping the magazine is quicker than doing a tactical reload while retaining the magazine. An example is here:

 

 

G3, AK and AR-15 all used and timed.

I do believe we've discussed the "emergency" reload where you dump a non-empty magazine for whatever reason a while ago somewhere (probably somewhere in this thread here).

 

Maybe that can be triggered with double-tapping the reload key or something... but I'm not sure if this has been explored or if any decision has been made about it.

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Guys, only MasterBlaster above has recognized what I actually mean't!

 

Indeed, two types of reload. A quicker emergeny or "tactical" reload whereby the player allows the mag to fall to the ground... much quicker reload.

 

The other reload whereby the player returns the magazine to his pouch before inserting a new magazine... a more deliberate and slower reload.

 

Yes double tapping the reload key performs the quicker "tactical" reload while a single keystroke performs the default slower reload.

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Guys, only MasterBlaster above has recognized what I actually mean't!

 

Indeed, two types of reload. A quicker emergeny or "tactical" reload whereby the player allows the mag to fall to the ground... much quicker reload.

 

The other reload whereby the player returns the magazine to his pouch before inserting a new magazine... a more deliberate and slower reload.

 

Yes double tapping the reload key performs the quicker "tactical" reload while a single keystroke performs the default slower reload.

 

Do you mean V2_Bloodline? MasterBlaster is a rank.

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Guys, only MasterBlaster above has recognized what I actually mean't!

 

Indeed, two types of reload. A quicker emergeny or "tactical" reload whereby the player allows the mag to fall to the ground... much quicker reload.

 

The other reload whereby the player returns the magazine to his pouch before inserting a new magazine... a more deliberate and slower reload.

 

Yes double tapping the reload key performs the quicker "tactical" reload while a single keystroke performs the default slower reload.

 

Novusordo, I think the confusion comes from how you choose to name the different types of reload.

 

What usually is called a "tactical reload", is where you spare the magazine and store it for later use, which is indeed a slower kind of reload.

The quick emergency reload where the mag is dropped, is commonly called a "speed reload".

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@Jeremy: I think Novusordo is asking whether if it's possible to deliberately drop a non-empty mag (for whatever reason). i.e. opt for a speed reload in a situation which one would normally perform a tac reload.

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I can understand the confusion as there's no established nomenclature for these types of things. That being said I I honestly can't think how I could of explained my OP any clearer, I mean comon guys.....

 

Will GB feature the option to reload tactically, i.e let the magazine fall out the weapon on to the ground, and the option to reload normally where the magazine is stored back in the pouch, for use later?

 

...and does anyone remember this ability in the previous version of AA? Maybe not as I distinctly remember it was a developer easter-egg, and the key binding had to be manually set in the ini file! It was soo awesome and much quicker than the standard reload however the enemy could hear that piece of hollow sheet steel crashing to the ground from a mile away so it reduces stealth, and you don't get to use the remaining rounds in the magazine for later.

 

All tactical shooters should have this... I was pretty ###### off that Insurgency never bothered with it. Infact insurgency is missing a crap load of features that I consider standard for a tactical shooter of it's calibre. The scourge of early access gives the dev's a 'license' to pretty much ground development progress to an almost halt while the low retail price simultaneously disallows the customers a leg to stand on when it comes to demanding further content/features.

 

Early access is a scourge and I'm sick of great games being released that lack so many feautures that would absolutely make them pretty much 100% perfect.

 

Release the ######ing game when it's 100% finished I say.

Edited by Novusordo

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http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2010/03/myth-of-tactical-reload.html

 

The above is a good read on this subject.

 

And this is where a lot more content is.

I do believe we've discussed the "emergency" reload where you dump a non-empty magazine for whatever reason a while ago somewhere (probably somewhere in this thread here).

 

Maybe that can be triggered with double-tapping the reload key or something... but I'm not sure if this has been explored or if any decision has been made about it.

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I can understand the confusion as there's no established nomenclature for these types of things. That being said I I honestly can't think how I could of explained my OP any clearer, I mean comon guys.....

 

 

 

...and does anyone remember this ability in the previous version of AA? Maybe not as I distinctly remember it was a developer easter-egg, and the key binding had to be manually set in the ini file! It was soo awesome and much quicker than the standard reload however the enemy could hear that piece of hollow sheet steel crashing to the ground from a mile away so it reduces stealth, and you don't get to use the remaining rounds in the magazine for later.

 

All tactical shooters should have this... I was pretty ###### off that Insurgency never bothered with it. Infact insurgency is missing a crap load of features that I consider standard for a tactical shooter of it's calibre. The scourge of early access gives the dev's a 'license' to pretty much ground development progress to an almost halt while the low retail price simultaneously disallows the customers a leg to stand on when it comes to demanding further content/features.

 

Early access is a scourge and I'm sick of great games being released that lack so many feautures that would absolutely make them pretty much 100% perfect.

 

Release the ######ing game when it's 100% finished I say.

 

The difference would honestly not be that big anyways. Just grab the magazine, your hand drops it in a dump pouch and then grabs a fresh one. The difference is about a second or less.

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Here is a copy'n'paste of some stuff from our internal wiki:

 

>>>

 

The player will always be in control of when to reload their weapon and whether to keep the magazine, if it has one.

 

Types of reloads

Instead of the usual terms - 'dry', 'speed' & 'tactical' - I prefer the terms proactive, reactive & with retention.

They are more descriptive and accurate.

Plus they sound cooler.

 

Proactive/Reactive

A proactive reload refers to replacing a weapons magazine before it runs out of ammunition.

Performed before entering a hostile situation to try and bring a weapon back up to capacity.

 

A reactive reload refers to replacing a weapons magazine after it runs out of ammunition.

Performed when a weapon fails to fire or due to a visual indication the weapon is empty, ie., locked back slide.

 

With Retention

A reload with retention refers to keeping a magazine - regardless of ammunition contained therein - after it has been removed.

Performed when decent magazines are hard to come by, ammunition is limited or stealth is required.

 

Gameplay Implications

  • Stealth - dropping a magazine makes noise & leaves a visual indication of a players presence.
  • Ammo - not retaining a magazine can waste ammunition.
  • Speed - retaining a magazine leaves a player vulnerable for longer.
  • Situation - proactive reloads can leave a player vulnerable for no reason.
  • Capacity - reactive reloads can leave a player with an empty weapon.

<<<

 

It goes on after that about reload stages, interupting and resuming etc.

 

As far as button usuage, my thoughts are:

  • Press - reload without retention.
  • Press and hold - reload with retention.

This is easy to learn, easy to master and removes the need for additional bindings or button combinations.

 

Hopefully this gives you an idea of where we're heading, in regards to reloading.

 

Feel free to agree/disagree, discuss and pick it apart.

Feedback is always welcome, provided it is useful :)

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Don't really like holding to retain. At least if it has ammo in it. Perhaps an option in the menu. If I plan on retaining all the time, I press R and it retains. I hold R when I don't want it. And if someone has the opposite stance, they reverse it.

 

Though my question is, why not retain the magazine if your weapon is not empty? If you are currently shooting/being shot at, why reload before the weapon runs dry? This is a scenario in which you would drop a magazine with ammo still in it, though I would prefer to put my extra rounds (even if only 3-5) down range first. Seems odd to reload while being shot at if you still have some rounds left in the weapon.

 

And when not being shot at or shooting, why would I drop a magazine that still has ammo left? More noise and I loose the ammo. I guess if you are room clearing, moving from room A to room B and the enemy is alerted the quicker reloading (so you have a fresh mag) can be helpful, but seems like a lot of extra work to save a second or so of time.

 

But the option to do both certainly is nice. I would just prefer to retain them (if they have ammo) all the time myself.

Edited by Flogger23m

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"To save a second or so" you just answered your own question! A second during CQB is life or death and so during CQB there is a massive speed difference between a retentive reload and allowing the magazine to fall freely to the ground while grabbing a fresh one from your vest before it has even landed on the ground!

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As far as button usuage, my thoughts are:

  • Press - reload without retention.
  • Press and hold - reload with retention.

This is easy to learn, easy to master and removes the need for additional bindings or button combinations.

 

Don't really like holding to retain. At least if it has ammo in it. Perhaps an option in the menu. If I plan on retaining all the time, I press R and it retains. I hold R when I don't want it. And if someone has the opposite stance, they reverse it.

 

@Kris: I'm aware that the controls are customizable, and one function can indeed be bound to "at least" 2 bindings, and as if that's not enough each computer can have multiple player profiles each with their own personal setups & key bindings. I have 2 questions though:

 

1. Can players define "hold time" like they could with "double tap time"?

 

2. If a player wants to bind a function to a "hold" or "double tap" instead of the normal "press", can these be done easily? (I'm talking about 'trigger' functions that does not involve 'states', unlike things like aiming or stance)

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@Flogger23m: You just gave me a feeling of deja-vu.

John mentioned a very similar thing to me about my thoughts on the button (option to reverse it etc).

That 'second or two' you mention could mean the difference between life or death.

In general though, yes, if you're expecting trouble, taking apart a perfectly functional firearm makes no sense.

 

@V2_Bloodline: Hold-time/double-tap time are one and the same, currently.

I am not sure if there will be a need to have two different ones honestly.

Something to test, eh? :)

 

As for choosing the bind, yes, you'll be able to choose tap, double-tap, hold etc. The engine switch put me behind in this area a bit, but it will be back in soon enough. Unreal Script to C++ and all that.

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I have another idea on how to approach the reloading. Instead of having button pressing techniques, I'd let the position you're in, dictate the reload you want.

When the weapon is out on target, and you reload, a speed reload is made. Obviously when you're engaging targets, if you really want to reload then it better go fast.

When you have the weapon in, you're off target, and you decide to reload, a tactical/retention one is made. Like already said in this thread, why would you waste a mag? Of course you want to keep it if you have the time. And apparently you're not engaging anyone so I guess that's a good opportunity to make such a reload.

 

So I think this is a more natural way to deal with this. On target: speed reload, off target: tactical/retention reload.

 

(For those who are not aware of this major gameplay feature, you can switch between 'off target' and 'on target', for example between low ready and engaged.)

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I agree and thought about that before. GRAW 2 PC featured quick saving but only if not in combat. The game was able to discern if there was an enemy shooting at you or not, and rather accurately. Perhaps the same can be done in Ground Branch. If you are in an enemies line of sight you drop the magazine, if not then keep it. Though this can be problematic in MP and probably harder to implement overall.

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Automating when you keep or discard a magazine may work 99% of the time, but if, in that left over 1%, you get killed or something else happens to ###### you off...

 

Far better to ensure that you, the player, are always in control.

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Automating when you keep or discard a magazine may work 99% of the time, but if, in that left over 1%, you get killed or something else happens to ###### you off...

 

Far better to ensure that you, the player, are always in control.

 

This. I, the player gets to decide when and how to reload, and also get to face the consequences of getting it wrong (either get caught reloading by the enemy or run out of ammo). It's NORG.

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You guys misunderstood. There is no need for the game to take over, to discern the situation or anything.

 

Going on-target or off-target is 100% player controlled. As I already mentioned for those who didn't know, you press a button to toggle between the two. That way you decide as well what kind of reload you want to do.

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@Jeremy: I believe they were referring to Flogger's post.

 

Also: It's not different button pressing techniques, it's simply 2 different types of reload to decide between. You can bind them to two separate buttons if you so desire.

Edited by V2_Bloodline

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