[Random]

I think the Browning would have to be a part of the rebel weapons set. As GB would probably use the M9, a Sig, or a Glock as their 9mm pistol.

[mwgfghost]

I'd like to see the Sig Sauer P226 40 cal. Usually all that are in games are 9 mm and 45's. I think in R6:V they had a 40 cal.

[polloi]

SILENCERS

PLEASE do not listen to the advice some have given regarding silencers. If the developers are inclined, I suggest registering at silencertalk.com and learning some of the facts about silencers and their use.

Raven Shield did infact take for granted that operators would be switching to subsonic ammunition. .45cal with the standard 230gr projectile is subsonic by default, so they did good by not reducing .45 damage [at least very much, IIRC].

As far as I know, in the 5.56 caliber, use of subsonic ammunition is practically nonexistent. Only recently have a couple manufacturers created subsonic loads that will properly cycle the action on an AR-15 [/M16]. For all intents and purposes, the suppressors of the 5.56 caliber are not 'SILENCERS' per se; the super-sonic crack is still present. While the report may still be heard, it is very difficult to tell exactly where the shot came from. This is the main tactical advantage, as well as preserving the operators' hearing for communications purposes. If you want to go subsonic and still take down a target at long range, the proper caliber would be the .308/7.62NATO, as the heavier bullet retains more energy at subsonic speed. Please DO NOT make the silenced 5.56 subsonic as this makes the weapon virtually useless and is not realistic.

In 9mm/.40 and others, subsonic ammo may in fact be used by SF operators on a mission-specific basis, but you can use normal supersonic ammo through them just fine. The silencer its self does not reduce damage -- it's merely the reduced velocity of subsonic loads resulting in poorer penetration and fragmentation issues in the 5.56. Suppressors in fact increase velocity by a few fps, and most of the designs [depending on method of bore alignment/attachment] will improve accuracy a good deal. Ideally, an operator would be using hollow point subsonics in the pistol calibers to effectively negate loss of penetration. However, on 'thick' targets, or angles that require extreme penetration to reach vitals, there would still be a disadvantage. Armored targets, of course, are out of the question for any hollow point or subsonic.

As far as in-game deployment of silencers goes, it should be noted that silencers become Extremely Hot, and while the latest silencers use a variety of 'quick attach' gizmos, to take it off you still have to cool it down before taking it off. Also on the subject of heat -- this restricts the firing schedule of full-auto fire, as the silencer eventually reaches a temp that would cause material failure. This issue is not as much of a factor in [pistol caliber] submachine guns, however, so long as an SMG silencer is used and not lighter-weight pistol silencer. On silencertalk.com and other places you can find info on the capabilities of the various silencers in use real-world today.

Let me know if there are any additional questions. I would love to help this game out and I can't wait to have a real alternative to Raven Shield again!

[Jerm vvarfare]

pretty sure all of that has been covered to varying degree's(although not much hasnt).

i think everyone(most everyone) is aware that the way suppressors are typically done in games isnt realistic.

[polloi]

Jerm vvarfare, on Jan 2 2008, 07:22 PM, said:

pretty sure all of that has been covered to varying degree's(although not much hasnt).

i think everyone(most everyone) is aware that the way suppressors are typically done in games isnt realistic.

Sorry, I read some of the earlier replies which were inaccurate, and searched the thread only finding one other response which was a bit better; mentioning subsonic ammo. I felt it could use some more elaboration. GB can't be the incredible game its shaping up to be if you get a super damage penalty for using a silencer on one of the most common guns [M16/M4]. In the very least it must be clear that 5.56 subsonic is a No-Go.

Also, it would be interesting if you could use heavier bullets for the precision 5.56 role [or perhaps just a 6.5?]. A lot of guys [including SOF] are using 69-77gr projectiles for higher accuracy and more punch at long range. These rounds are also better for barrels shorter than 14.5" [i.e. 'commando length'] since standard 55 and 62gr ammo won't fragment using them.

[Jerm vvarfare]

Quote

Sorry

dont be.

just trying to alleviate any worries in that regard.

im confident realistic weapon handling/behaviour will be second to none.

it seems to be a focal point of the game from what ive read/seen.

[bnevins]

good suggestion about silencertalk.com polloi , i was gunna suggest that along with other things this morning, but my computer wasnt corporating with me.

so while im here i'll do that now.

Few suggestions

1st suggestion: Sight Picture.
All FPS games iv played that use iron sights as a way of aiming, have done it all the same, and kinda of "incorrectly". They all have the rear sight centered in the screen, you look through the apature, and place the front sight post on your target.

this is fine, if the shooter is closeing one eye. but in a combat environment this isnt the best thing to do, due to the loss of situational awareness, and enhances the probability of tunnel vision.

If you have a rifle avalible, pick it up, close one eye and look down the sights. the rifle should look centered in your fov, rear sight should be blurry and the front sight post should be in focus. now open the other eye. Much more of rifle should be visable, you now can see what is going on around you and the rifle/sights should now be on the right side of ur FOV(if your holding the rifle with ur right hand)

shooting with both eyes open may seem unnatural, but with practice it becomes easy and better feeling. this can be done with iron sights, 1x optics and magnified optics.

2nd Suggestion: Recoil
GB operators are not kids, they can control weapons on fullauto. Some games put an outrageous amount of recoil on some weapons. If you watch videos of experienced shooters, you will see how recoil can be controlled. i would like it if the devs took some time to get recoil right in GB.

3rd Suggestiong: Suppressor Sounds
no "phew, phew" and i would be happy , a long with the suggestions givin by polloi the sound of suppressed weapons should be accurate, there are many videos on silencertalk, and youtube where you can hear the diffrences between suppressed and unsuppressed weapons, and demos from various manufacturers.

Edited by bnevins, 02 January 2008 - 08:33 PM.

[mwgfghost]

Yeah Polloi. If you read the newsletters, you'll notice they have ex-military guys helping out with the game. I think that's important for weapons sounds, storyline, and movements. That's the one thing I always blame on Novalogic is their weapon sounds are always awful and they always have run and gun movements. After reading the newsletters, my confidence in BFS was even higher than before and I think yours will be too.

[Ermac]

What I thought was dumb about RVS's supressors is how it lowered the damage.

Edited by Ermac, 06 January 2008 - 06:02 PM.

[mwgfghost]

Well I dunno about less damage but I do know some guns have lowered accuracy when suppressors are attached. I think one of LWRC's 6.8mm rifles has it so it's just as accurate with a suppressor. I'm still curious as to what weapons will be in the game but I don't think they'll be able to release that info for a long while.

[bnevins]

mwgfghost, on Jan 6 2008, 08:15 PM, said:

Well I dunno about less damage but I do know some guns have lowered accuracy when suppressors are attached. I think one of LWRC's 6.8mm rifles has it so it's just as accurate with a suppressor. I'm still curious as to what weapons will be in the game but I don't think they'll be able to release that info for a long while.

thats true with some manufacturers, surefire advertises that their suppressors can increase accuracy with minimal POI shift.

[Snowfella]

To the best of my knowledge the accuracy of a rifle when using a suppressor has just about nothing to do with the rifle itself and everything to do with the suppressor and it's mount.
The mechanical increase in accuracy that you see with alot of suppressors is simply because you get an even release of gasses around the bullet as it exits the muzzle as opposed to an uneven gasrelease that most flashhiders/muzzlebreaks gives.

Now that's where the mount comes into play, unless you get your suppressor mounted absolutely centered to the bore you will end up with an uneven release of gasses and it will affect the bullets flight.

That even release of gasses is why a barrels crown is soooo important in accurate shooting and if you have an old rifle accuracy can even be increased by cutting the barrel down slightly....as if you get it done by a professional the crown will be even again.

As for balancing the use of suppressors in games...yeah, most games do take the shortcut and balance the minimised report and muzzle flash by lowering accuracy and damage.
As opposed to balancing it (if we are talking supersonic loads here) using weight, balance of the rifle and the increased heatretention of the barrel...plus for most suppressor equipped handguns you also have the problem of sight picture to take into account...simply put the suppressors are generally large enough that they will obscure the sights totally! That's why if you look at handguns like the SigSauer P220 Combat TB the sights are raised considerably above the slide.

[Demon_Mustang]

Yah, for the most part suppressors increase muzzle velocity and often result in increased accuracy, as in the group size, but it shifts the point of impact, which can be a problem if you're switching from non-suppressed to suppressed and your sights are zeroed for without the suppressor.

I don't know, maybe they should do this in the game if you're allowed to add or remove a suppressor mid-game, make it so your POI is slightly off at longer ranges. And that shooting in full auto can cause backflash or perhaps make it so automatic weapons become bolt-action when you use the suppressor because sometimes they interfere with the gas system.

I don't know, those are the only lame-brain ideas I can think of, lol.

[mwgfghost]

Thanks for all the info, Snow.

[Biggus]

Smaller suppressors do tend to heat up fairly quickly. I would imagine that a heat saturated suppressor would probably see some degradation in accuracy, but that is simply conjecture on my part.

I'd be against turning all suppressed semi auto weapons into manual bolt weapons simply because it isn't an accurate representation. If suppressors give an advantage in real life, they should in the game too. It is a NORG issue. If there isn't a downside IRL, why introduce one? If you're worried about balancing online play, then simply have a server option to disable them, or allow them only for pistol calibre weapons.

What I'm really interested in is whether usage of supersonic ammunition through a suppressor is accurately modelled. The rounds should be loud and clear downrange, but not give much in the way of directional hints towards the origin of the shot.

I'd also hope that there is at least one .22LR weapon in game to take advantage of any work which is being done on suppressed weapon sounds.

[Relinquish]

Adding a silencer will increase the weapons length, so that might be a disadvantage in cqb. I think they said gun length will be a factor with movement the game didnt they?

This talk about the effects of silencers, and how it differs with different guns, bullets etc, could confuse the gamer(me). I hope it will be well explained ingame, so people(I) can consider the effects so to make well informed tactical decisions.

Best Regards

Relinquish

Edited by Relinquish, 07 January 2008 - 07:23 PM.

[Demon_Mustang]

Well, I only mentioned that because in real life, some suppressors do mess up semi/full auto weapons' gas system and DO turn them into bolt action. I've seen it with me own eyes, arrrg.

I don't know where that pirate came from...

But yah, I've seen it happen before with certain ones on some weapons.

[Biggus]

Demon_Mustang, on Jan 8 2008, 10:29 PM, said:

Well, I only mentioned that because in real life, some suppressors do mess up semi/full auto weapons' gas system and DO turn them into bolt action. I've seen it with me own eyes, arrrg.

I don't know where that pirate came from...

But yah, I've seen it happen before with certain ones on some weapons.

I've seen it too. But it isn't necessarily common. It is generally with a seriously reduced power load, in which the aim is to eliminate not only the sound of the round going downrange, but also the action noise. There are plenty of subsonic cartridges available for 5.56 that cycle the action of most AR15 pattern weapons, generally around the 100 grain mark. There are subsonic 7.62mm NATO rounds that do the job as well.

Now, if we're going so far as to model action noise, then maybe bolt locked suppressed weapons are a good idea. But I think that this might not be within the realms of achievability for a small team of devs on a tight budget.

Which is sort of why I'm interested in this game, simply for the openness of it.

[Demon_Mustang]

Yah, that's probably true. I never really asked what ammo they used, most likely they were using subsonic ammunition. Either way, I just brought it up because I didn't see anyone else mention it and was just seeing if it could have any relevance.

[Relinquish]

About 4.45 in an interesting bit on supressors. For all you gun fanatics out there it isnt going to be anything new, but for the likes of me, it is interesting.