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2 MOA or 4 MOA dot size?

Started by Demon_Mustang, Nov 29 2007 01:56 PM

#1 Demon_Mustang

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 01:56 PM

Alright, I'm about to buy an Aimpoint CompM3 for my AR15. But I have to decide between the 2 MOA version and the 4 MOA version. Now let me start by mentioning, I am asking for advice for dot size ONLY. I am not asking for suggestions for which optics are better. Don't worry, I don't live under a rock, I do know about the other optics out there, and I like the Aimpoint for my own reasons just like you might like your EO Techs and ACOGs for yours. So please, just keep it to yourself, you're not going to change my mind about the music I listen to either.

Anyway, I seem to remember some people telling me before on another forum that being able to see the dot really fast on a reflex shot is more important than having a dot that is slightly more precise. I think I also remember people saying that the 4 MOA dot is already pretty precise, to lose speed to a slightly more precise dot is not really worth it. I asked this on a forum months ago, so perhaps I'm remembering wrong, but this is the general idea I have in my head. Any opinions?
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#2 Whisper_44

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 02:52 PM

I think it comes down to personal preference. Any chance that you'll be able to try before you buy? Perhaps not practical shooting with each, but at the very least, some repetitions at presentation and target acquisition? The gun club here that I belong to has rings blue guns mounted with all of the different optics, and while I was fortunate enough  to get some rounds down range with both the 2 & the 4,  I did find that just being able to look through each in a static setting was conclusive and helpful.

With that said. I prefer the 4, I can see it quicker, and just feel better shooting with it, I don't need sub MOA groups at 300m, the 4MOA dot gets me minute of bad guy all day long

#3 Jerm vvarfare

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 08:43 PM

cant you "bloom" the 2 MOA dot up larger anyway?

i have no real experience with the Aimpoint(or any red dot sights).but ive been considering them and was going to go with the 2 MOA if i got one.

4 just seems like an awfully big blindspot...unless im missing something,wouldnt that be a 12" blind spot at 300 yards?...8" at 200?

#4 Random

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 04:45 PM

I've used both a bit. I'm not really an expert though. I think it really depends on what you prefer and what you want it for. For practical shooting I think the 4 is fine, but if you want accuracy then you should go with the 2. I think the best thing is to see if you can test fire both. Most people at the range will let you get in a shot or two.

#5 FA sear

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 04:23 PM

View PostRandom, on Nov 30 2007, 05:53 PM, said:

I've used both a bit. I'm not really an expert though. I think it really depends on what you prefer and what you want it for. For practical shooting I think the 4 is fine, but if you want accuracy then you should go with the 2. I think the best thing is to see if you can test fire both. Most people at the range will let you get in a shot or two.


Hmm, Aimpoint, nice choice. I have both Eotechs and Aimpoints, and although I do prefer the 1MOA dot on my Eotech, the Aimpoint is still better when it comes to NV compatibility.

Anyway, I have a Comp M4 with the 2MOA dot and when compared to the Comp M3 with a 4MOA dot, I don't notice a difference in terms of target acquisition. I have tried both on shotguns shooting clays and on shortbarreled carbines. When shooting clays, I was using a 14" Benelli, and a 9" Wilson Combat, so shooting the clay immediately upon launch was absolutely necessary. Even under those circumstances I did not really notice a difference.

Now having said that, I know that some people have a harder time with the smaller dot, so as Random said you might want to try it out if you get a chance. Aimpoints certainly are not cheap, so making the right decision before purchasing it would certianly be preferable.
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#6 Whisper_44

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 05:01 PM

Wlecome back Joe, it's been a while..

#7 FA sear

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 08:25 AM

View PostWhisper_44, on Dec 7 2007, 06:09 PM, said:

Wlecome back Joe, it's been a while..

Thanks Whisper, it has been a while. I have been busy with work, and have not been gaming much. I just bought Splinter Cell DA. You can see how far behind the times I am. Oh, and I still have not bought a 360 yet, yeah, I know, I am pretty slow with the gaming stuff.
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#8 Whisper_44

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 03:02 PM

COD4 is where its at now.. :) but that's for another thread.. I built a new PC as well, so I am up to current with my gaming there.  :thumbsup: cheers bud

#9 FA sear

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 03:45 PM

View PostWhisper_44, on Dec 8 2007, 04:10 PM, said:

COD4 is where its at now.. :) but that's for another thread.. I built a new PC as well, so I am up to current with my gaming there.  :thumbsup: cheers bud

I looked up COD4 and it seems like a pretty intense game, but I probably won't buy a 360 until I finish SCDA, and unless I start gaming more than once a week, I'm not sure I will pick up a 360 by the end of the year.

I'm only gaming on console these days, so my PC is now strictly for work only. I still have GR and RVS loaded on it, but I have not run them in a very long time. I plan on popping in a couple times a week now.

Good to see that you are still around.
Quote from the 1911 forum:
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#10 Demon_Mustang

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 04:48 PM

I got COD4 for my PC. Not very realistic, but the single player story telling is an incredible experience, like watching a movie in first person view, pretty sweet. And that is all helped by the graphics, I have everything turned to max and it still runs smooth as butter, so good 3D engine and the almost photo-realistic graphics are awesome, and great lighting and shadow effects. Their depth of view (focus) effect is awesome, and I hope it is in every first person shooter because it really adds a sense of realism that has never been done before. In fact, I'm going to ask about that in the GB forum, lol.

And the multiplayer is pretty fun. I'm a Major General already, lol, I think they need to change it so you gain rank slower, you gain rank WAY too fast in that game, you can make the max rank in less than a week if you play enough...

Edited by Demon_Mustang, 08 December 2007 - 04:50 PM.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not." - Anonymous
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William J. Clinton (1998)

#11 FA sear

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 03:59 PM

View PostDemon_Mustang, on Dec 8 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

I got COD4 for my PC. Not very realistic, but the single player story telling is an incredible experience, like watching a movie in first person view, pretty sweet. And that is all helped by the graphics, I have everything turned to max and it still runs smooth as butter, so good 3D engine and the almost photo-realistic graphics are awesome, and great lighting and shadow effects. Their depth of view (focus) effect is awesome, and I hope it is in every first person shooter because it really adds a sense of realism that has never been done before. In fact, I'm going to ask about that in the GB forum, lol.

And the multiplayer is pretty fun. I'm a Major General already, lol, I think they need to change it so you gain rank slower, you gain rank WAY too fast in that game, you can make the max rank in less than a week if you play enough...

I will have to keep that in mind when I eventually pick up a copy.

BTW, did you you pick up that Aimpoint?
Quote from the 1911 forum:
"all manner of girlie men, cross dressers, and bathhouse queens shoot the 9mm round"

#12 Demon_Mustang

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 06:34 AM

Lol, no, I am currently applying for a new job and even though there's little to no chance of me being jobless for any period of time, I do believe that whenever you're in an unsure or unstable position or period in time, you shouldn't be making any large purchases, just in case you know.

So I'm going to wait a while, and I think I'm going to stick with my original plan to get the 4 MOA. I don't intend for anything beyond close to maybe medium range for this weapon anyhow, that would be reserved for a M1A further down the road, lol.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not." - Anonymous
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William J. Clinton (1998)

#13 FA sear

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 04:49 PM

View PostDemon_Mustang, on Dec 11 2007, 07:42 AM, said:

Lol, no, I am currently applying for a new job and even though there's little to no chance of me being jobless for any period of time, I do believe that whenever you're in an unsure or unstable position or period in time, you shouldn't be making any large purchases, just in case you know.

So I'm going to wait a while, and I think I'm going to stick with my original plan to get the 4 MOA. I don't intend for anything beyond close to maybe medium range for this weapon anyhow, that would be reserved for a M1A further down the road, lol.

Hey, good luck with the new job, and an M1A eh? Nice choice, I just love those rifles. :thumbsup:

Edited by jchung, 11 December 2007 - 04:50 PM.

Quote from the 1911 forum:
"all manner of girlie men, cross dressers, and bathhouse queens shoot the 9mm round"

#14 Demon_Mustang

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 09:22 AM

Just so you know, I just ordered the Aimpoint. Getting the 4 MOA is simply too much trouble. So I just ordered the combo package from GG&G's website for the accucam cantilever mount and the Aimpoint Comp M3 in 2 MOA. I figure it can't be "hard" to see or else they would not have made it. And if it's too bright, the thing I LOVE about Aimpoints is the lens cover, all you have to do is close the objective lens cover if it's too bright and shoot with both eyes open and the red dot contrasts with the black of the lens cover and it stands out like a sore thumb. Works like a charm.

I also figured that the 2 MOA dot will be nice for if later I decide to buy the 3x magnifier for the Aimpoint, the 2 MOA dot will look nicer magnified than a 4 MOA dot which would just be huge once you magnify it, lol.

I'll post a pic of the rifle with the aimpoint as soon as I get it.

Thanks for everyone's input. :-)
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not." - Anonymous
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William J. Clinton (1998)

#15 Whisper_44

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 10:27 AM

Not to be a complete snob, but why did you go with the GG&G?

#16 Demon_Mustang

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 04:19 PM

Because I'm an individual and have personal preferences. STRANGE I KNOW!!! lol

Just kidding man, I don't know, why not? I know knights makes a similar mount, but I think it was cheaper overall to get them together this way from their site.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not." - Anonymous
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William J. Clinton (1998)

#17 FA sear

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 10:44 AM

View PostDemon_Mustang, on Dec 20 2007, 10:39 AM, said:

Just so you know, I just ordered the Aimpoint. Getting the 4 MOA is simply too much trouble. So I just ordered the combo package from GG&G's website for the accucam cantilever mount and the Aimpoint Comp M3 in 2 MOA. I figure it can't be "hard" to see or else they would not have made it. And if it's too bright, the thing I LOVE about Aimpoints is the lens cover, all you have to do is close the objective lens cover if it's too bright and shoot with both eyes open and the red dot contrasts with the black of the lens cover and it stands out like a sore thumb. Works like a charm.

I also figured that the 2 MOA dot will be nice for if later I decide to buy the 3x magnifier for the Aimpoint, the 2 MOA dot will look nicer magnified than a 4 MOA dot which would just be huge once you magnify it, lol.

I'll post a pic of the rifle with the aimpoint as soon as I get it.

Thanks for everyone's input. :-)

Nice. :thumbsup:

I have the Comp M4 with a 2 dot and I never have trouble with conditions being too bright. Congratulations with the purchase, I'm sure you will enjoy it for a long time to come.

BTW, the magnifier is too pricey if you ask me. For the close range stuff I went with an IOR that goes from 1.1-4X, and it works great for indoor to 400m out. You certainly can't go wrong with the Aimpoint magnifier, but I just prefer the stronger 4X magnification and the simplicity of the IOR. Just my preference, but I thought I would mention it in case you find that it might appeal to you too.
Quote from the 1911 forum:
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#18 Demon_Mustang

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 03:34 PM

View Postjchung, on Dec 22 2007, 12:01 PM, said:

Nice. :thumbsup:

I have the Comp M4 with a 2 dot and I never have trouble with conditions being too bright. Congratulations with the purchase, I'm sure you will enjoy it for a long time to come.

BTW, the magnifier is too pricey if you ask me. For the close range stuff I went with an IOR that goes from 1.1-4X, and it works great for indoor to 400m out. You certainly can't go wrong with the Aimpoint magnifier, but I just prefer the stronger 4X magnification and the simplicity of the IOR. Just my preference, but I thought I would mention it in case you find that it might appeal to you too.

Yah, the magnifier costs the same as the aimpoint itself. It is kind of a rip isn't it? I just figured that good glass just costs a lot, but then again, the Aimpoint itself has "good glass" plus it has the whole red dot mechanism, so the magnifier without that should be cheaper... Anyway, I'll take a look at the IOR, I'm planning on buying a DSA SA58, or a modernized FN FAL sometime in the next year so I might need another set of optics anyway...
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"It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not." - Anonymous
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William J. Clinton (1998)

#19 Demon_Mustang

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 03:40 PM

Damn, looking at this IOR it just reminded me the downside of having magnification: eye relief.

The main reason why I wanted to have optics instead of just using my iron sights was because I can completely negate eye relief, but I forgot that once you get magnified, you'll need to maintain proper eye relief anyway, so either I'm going to limit myself to non magnified red dot sights or just accept the fact that I will have to maintain proper eye relief, lol. I'm pretty good with it, just lazy I suppose...

The IOR looks pretty nice, but damn, almost $1000 for it, but I guess quality optics costs money huh? My friend just spent $1200 on his ACOG, lol. But good thing about that, you won't have to worry about batteries...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
"It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not." - Anonymous
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - William J. Clinton (1998)

#20 FA sear

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 03:30 PM

View PostDemon_Mustang, on Dec 22 2007, 04:57 PM, said:

Damn, looking at this IOR it just reminded me the downside of having magnification: eye relief.

The main reason why I wanted to have optics instead of just using my iron sights was because I can completely negate eye relief, but I forgot that once you get magnified, you'll need to maintain proper eye relief anyway, so either I'm going to limit myself to non magnified red dot sights or just accept the fact that I will have to maintain proper eye relief, lol. I'm pretty good with it, just lazy I suppose...

The IOR looks pretty nice, but damn, almost $1000 for it, but I guess quality optics costs money huh? My friend just spent $1200 on his ACOG, lol. But good thing about that, you won't have to worry about batteries...

Well the issue of eye relief is why I have sold all my ACOGs at this point. The ACOG is nice, but I never liked the small eye lens, and the super short 1.7" of eye relief. The IOR scopes all have almost 4" of eye relief. Yep, more than twice what the Trijicons have, and the eye lenses are absolutely huge. I did have one ACOG (calibrated for a .308) that had more eye relief, but with the small eye lense it only made it even more difficult to use.

BTW, with a fresh battery you can leave an IOR reticle on the highest setting for days on end and not have to worry about running the battery out. Especially when you consider the objective lense size and compatibility with night vision and thermal, there is simply no other scope out there that can adapt to as many configurations as an IOR. Note the small objective lense (makes it easy to adapt to various NV devices) and the large eye lense (I have several of these scopes and they are all VERY easy to quickly look into and aquire a target almost instantly).

Posted Image

The other thing about the IOR is the reticle. The Aimpoint is sweet, but when the target moves farther out the adjustments are harder to make. Here is the reticle to my 1.1-4X scope.

Posted Image

Schmit Bender is also a nice choice, but they don't offer lit rets with many of their scopes. Also, the range of magnification is too limited (an issue I had with Nightforce, Leupold, Zeiss and many other brands). I have an IOR that goes as low as 2X, but it still goes out to 12X. A 6:1 ratio. That is currently the widest range of variablility among mass produced scopes (along with the 3X-18X that IOR offers). There are some custom scopes that exceed 6:1 ratios, but they are also triple and often even more in price.

Anyway, as far as a simple red dot goes, Aimpoint is hard to beat. I know that I love my Comp M4.
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"all manner of girlie men, cross dressers, and bathhouse queens shoot the 9mm round"




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