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Thoughts On Piracy

Started by WhiteKnight77, Sep 03 2008 05:04 PM

#1 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 05:04 PM

A gamer by the name of bacchus2 recently posted in his blog about piracy. He has a very interesting take on it. Check out his Thoughts on Piracy.
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#2 }SkOrPn--7

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 06:14 PM

In my opinion he clearly hasn't purchased any games that belong to that French company with some of the things he says. I have no issue with anyone going down the try before you buy method with that company they don't support there consumers nor there game so I guess he's talking about me on a few of those points..............

#3 MONOLITH

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 07:06 PM

Proceed with caution.

Piracy is not going to be supported here in any form, for any reason.
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#4 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 10:53 PM

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#5 Bota:16

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 12:21 AM

When developers/publisher quit making AAA games for PC, we will only have the PC culture to blame.  Until there becomes an almost failsafe form of DRM, then this problem will not go away.  UBI has gone as far as purposely putting critical bugs in the release of a game and then offer a patch the day of release.  There was some news on this recently for Assasin Creed.

BOTA:49 said:

I'm sorry, but that's the equivalent of the Kool Aid guy jumping through my wall, me replastering it, and then the Kool Aid guy jumping back in again. It doesn't make me want any damn Kool Aid!


#6 MONOLITH

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 04:26 AM

View PostBota:16, on Sep 4 2008, 02:21 AM, said:

we will only have the PC culture to blame.


To be fair, the 'gaming' culture is to blame.

If pirating console software was easy to do, it would be just as bad there. It's a PC issue not because of PC gamers, but because of the ease of pirating on the PC.

And it's not just games obviously, there are tons of illegal unlicensed copies of photoshop and 3DsMax floating around from hand to hand in the modding world.

But don't blame just one platform, it's simply human beings in general.
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#7 }SkOrPn--7

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 05:31 AM

Bota:16 I have two Sim pay ware lemon aircraft from two different developer that had major issues just with the craft it self and while emailing my concerns and findings (including screenshots) to the companies with no fix forth coming and broken promises they no longer respond to my emails. They have my money and I'm left holding a failed purchase. One of the developers has a really bad DRM that is very cumbersome plus a right pain in the @ss to get working should you alter any of the files to better suit realism and taste.

So $100 buck out of pocket I searched a wares site and found that the Aircraft has been cracked and had the issues fixed that I brought to the attention of the developers and the DRM removed. This was all done by the clever crackers when the developers could not fix or resolve the issues they had created so Guess what? I downloaded the pirated version and using it too this day so I'm guilty of being a pirate.

That French company has also been busted using a cracked .exe file that crackers made to fix problems and placing it up for download as there own fix so you got to laugh at that.

I have recorded TV shows etc and passed on to friends that were not home to watch it and they do the same for me at times so again I'm guilty of being a pirate. I also got a stack of old 78's and vinyl records that I was too lazy too convert nor have the software too do but wanted on my PC in MP3 format so I just searched torrent sites until I found my albums of the ones I wanted/quality and downloaded so again I'm a pirate with this and everything above I mentioned and while it's a grey area bottom line I pirated. :nono:

#8 krise madsen

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:09 AM

The way I read the blog, all he's saying is that people pirate simply because they can (and can get away with it), which is probably true. He then lists a series of reasons why no, it isn't really OK to pirate (and those excuses are pretty sad), with which I agree as well. No biggie really. Sadly, I doubt anyone who pirate games will listen.

The blogger makes one interesting point about buying the game and then downloading a cracked copy to circumvent the DRM and then e-mail the publisher to let them know that he doesn't like being bugged by DRM that doesn't work. And the proof is in the pudding: Since he can download a cracked version, the DRM doesn't work, and thus any inconvenience the DRM causes him is unnecessary and avoidable.

View PostBota:16, on Sep 4 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

When developers/publisher quit making AAA games for PC, we will only have the PC culture to blame. Until there becomes an almost failsafe form of DRM, then this problem will not go away.

Agreed. IMHO, the "fight" between gamers and industry over DRM is not that gamers face some inconvenience in order for the industry to curtail piracy. Both agree that piracy is bad for everyone. The fight is over DRM that inconvenience the gamers without doing much of anything against piracy. We all accept various inconveniences every day becuase we know it's for the greater good. Few of us willingly accept inconveniences that don't do squat for anyone.

Like requiring the disc in the drive to play. Having to switch discs is a fairly minor annoyance, but I'm a complete slob who scratches or even breaks my discs regularly; the disc-in-drive requirement is a disaster for me. Yet if a disc-in-drive DRM truly curtailed piracy then I would happily accept it. Even if it only stops pirated versions for the first weeks or months after release (apparently some wants to play the game immediately and will buy if they can't pirate), I'd accept it if I could expect a no-CD patch resonably soon after a working crack shows up on bit torrent sites.

View PostBota:16, on Sep 4 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

When developers/publisher quit making AAA games for PC, we will only have the PC culture to blame.  Until there becomes an almost failsafe form of DRM, then this problem will not go away.  UBI has gone as far as purposely putting critical bugs in the release of a game and then offer a patch the day of release.  There was some news on this recently for Assasin Creed.

If you're referring to Ubi's lawsuit against the disc duplicator that leaked Assassins Creed, then that's not correct. Code was removed (it made certain levels not load) from the pre-Gold work-in-process version as a watermark to track leaks. When people (having pirated the game) started commenting on the "bug" (levels not loading), Ubi was able to track the leak to the duplicator. The Gold version did not have this missing code (though I'm sure there were other bugs).

Of course, if you're referring to another bug then just forget what I said :)

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#9 krise madsen

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:26 AM

View Post}SkOrPn--7, on Sep 4 2008, 01:31 PM, said:

I searched a wares site and found that the Aircraft has been cracked and had the issues fixed that I brought to the attention of the developers and the DRM removed. This was all done by the clever crackers when the developers could not fix or resolve the issues they had created so Guess what? I downloaded the pirated version and using it too this day so I'm guilty of being a pirate.

Not if you paid for it in the first place, at least not in my book. :) And good for you letting the developers know. That's the only way we can make progress on this issue.

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Hatchetforce said:

First John Wayne dies in 1979 and then 2 years later the Smurfs show up on NBC. It has been mostly downhill after that.
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#10 Nemesis

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 08:29 AM

What can be engineered, can be reverse engineered. PERIOD.
Pir8's will always exist as much as programmer / devellopers hate it....its inherent in the process of design.

Do a nut & bolt up on a car....then the nut & bolt can be undone. Use a glue to weld the nut & bolt so its tight then it cen be reveresed by using an opposing solvent.

...it goes on & on.
The only edge is TIME.

A devellpoper can create an algorithm that will lock wares & now in TIME the pir8 will crack it. So the only way to secure the item is to have a changing algorithm that is NOT programmed but is downloaded to keep the wares secure.
A bit like change the solution of glue daily on the nut & bolt with a differing solution.
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#11 galzohar

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 01:22 PM

Like I said on other threads, I think the only way to significantly reduce piracy is to provide an online service that most players will want, and that has some kind of upkeep requirements so that nobody will do it for free, at least not well. That way if you're not paying you're not enjoying the whole product, and if the product is good and the service makes it noticeably better, then people will pay.

World of Warcraft is a classic example, as the whole game is pretty much a service of its own. More simple examples are warcraft 3 and diablo 2, where you can play cracked offline but can't find players to play with online without their service which requires a legal and unique CD-key, and you need the large player pool to have quality gaming - you can find a friend that will play with you once a week, but not every day all day. You can make your own pirated service, but nobody will actually want to keep something like that running, and the player pool will be much smaller due to needing to actually know how to use the pirated service and will be split upon different pirated services. So if you really like the game, you pretty much have to buy it.

Even something more simple like high frequency patching that will require excessive work to pirate and will provide noticeable and desireably improvements to the game is not as good, but can be enough to make people want to buy the game so they can keep up with the coolest stuff available, and not spend a large % of the time they want to play waiting for someone to crack the new version. Or even hosting fast, reliable, well-moderated servers with a good server-finding system that requires a legal and unique CD-key may be more than enough.

At the end, if you want to sell to people that will not buy what can be achieved for free, you need to add to your sale something that cannot be achieved for free. Which obviously means that if your product is lower quality than the pirated product, you can forget about selling copies to the majority of the gamers.

Edited by galzohar, 04 September 2008 - 01:23 PM.

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#12 Delta[84]

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 01:47 PM

View PostBota:16, on Sep 4 2008, 02:21 AM, said:

When developers/publisher quit making AAA games for PC, we will only have the PC culture to blame.  Until there becomes an almost failsafe form of DRM, then this problem will not go away.  UBI has gone as far as purposely putting critical bugs in the release of a game and then offer a patch the day of release.  There was some news on this recently for Assasin Creed.

So people only need to wait for the V1.1 crack instead  :shifty:
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#13 Bota:16

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 02:18 PM

View PostMONOLITH, on Sep 4 2008, 04:26 AM, said:

To be fair, the 'gaming' culture is to blame.

If pirating console software was easy to do, it would be just as bad there. It's a PC issue not because of PC gamers, but because of the ease of pirating on the PC.

And it's not just games obviously, there are tons of illegal unlicensed copies of photoshop and 3DsMax floating around from hand to hand in the modding world.

But don't blame just one platform, it's simply human beings in general.

It's why I said PC Culture and not gaming culture.  It is far too easy to pirate games/music/software on a PC.  On a console it typically involves some kind of hardware mod in order to do it.  Not many console gamers are willing to risk bricking thier console to do it.  Does it still happen? Yes, but small compared to PC piracy.  Would you physically alter your motherboard on your PC in order to use pirated IP knowing if you messed up you would have to buy a new motherboard?  Doubtful and neither would a very large majority of PCers.  That's why I am saying until there is an almost foolproof "anti-piracy" measure (DRM probably wasn't the best word to use in my original post), more than likely on the hardware side, nothing is going to change.



View PostDelta[84], on Sep 4 2008, 01:47 PM, said:

So people only need to wait for the V1.1 crack instead :shifty:

True but the ones who want to play it as soon as it comes out will be SOL.  Eventually all versions will be cracked at some point, all it does is buys time for the publisher.

BOTA:49 said:

I'm sorry, but that's the equivalent of the Kool Aid guy jumping through my wall, me replastering it, and then the Kool Aid guy jumping back in again. It doesn't make me want any damn Kool Aid!


#14 Crow

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 02:56 PM

I've found that people who pirate games usually only pirate it if it they would not buy it in the first place.  I know a couple of guys who just try out games that they would not spend money on if they couldn't pirate it.  For games that they actually believe in, and like where the company is going, usually give up the money for the game.  I'm not saying if this is right or wrong, but I think that is a pretty common thought process for people who pirate games.

Edited by Crow, 04 September 2008 - 02:57 PM.


#15 MONOLITH

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 03:16 PM

View PostBota:16, on Sep 4 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

It's why I said PC Culture and not gaming culture.

I gotcha now.  

When I first read it, I interpreted your use of "PC culture" as a reference to PC Gamers. But I'm realizing now that's not what you meant.    :thumbsup:
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#16 Relinquish

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 03:50 PM

View PostCrow, on Sep 4 2008, 09:56 PM, said:

I've found that people who pirate games usually only pirate it if it they would not buy it in the first place.  I know a couple of guys who just try out games that they would not spend money on if they couldn't pirate it.  For games that they actually believe in, and like where the company is going, usually give up the money for the game.  I'm not saying if this is right or wrong, but I think that is a pretty common thought process for people who pirate games.
People are very good at justifying un-ethical behaviour.

After all
  • One less sale isn't going to hurt a big company.
  • If it is any good I'll definate go out and buy it, some day, definately, maybe.
  • Big companies are evil so i should not support them.
  • If i support small companies they will become big and EVIL. Better not support them either.
  • I'm strapped for money at the moment, i'll just pirate stuff until i can afford to buy it.
  • Its the companies fault, I wouldn't download it if it wasn't so easy.
  • The pirated version doesn't have any of the anti piracy stuff, so it is better. Why pay for an inferior product?
The list goes on and on. At the end of the day it doesn't stop what you are doing being wrong. And it doesn't stop what you are doing damaging an industry and those who work in it. And the knock on effect is less money for companies to produce good quality games which we all enjoy playing.

Edited by Relinquish, 04 September 2008 - 05:41 PM.


#17 MONOLITH

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 04:54 PM

+1

Right on, Relinquish.

Thank you.
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#18 Delta[84]

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 05:01 PM

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And the knock on effect is less money for companies to produce good quality games which we all enjoy playing.

Yup like Ubi and EA... Oh wait...
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#19 Grendel

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 05:23 PM

There are a million things that I could discuss here.  In fact, I've already written about a twenty page article on this, but I will refrain from posting all of it, because it will result in a childish fist-fight about who is the just man.

Just keep in mind, also, that some products are never released legally in certain regions of the world.  That leaves potential fans in a bit of a peculiar position.
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#20 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 05:24 PM

When RB6:V came out I couldn't find a demo to try it out first...coz it had mixed reviews.
I remember asking around about Torrent-this-that, but end up holding off altogether until it was $17.
There I noticed a trend on no-demo games <_< I end up boycotting those games...forgot which ones... :unsure:

Now I'm looking at a movie editing software coz it has features that I suck in. But after some slideshow/movie  :whistle:  I knew I suck at it, so paying $100 on something that will suck anyway, I thought, hell I'll just pirate it.

Then again, IF I get caught & go to prison, then the person I intend to impress with video will only get mad at me, so thats out. I'm stuck on MovieMaker 2, at least I can sit in our sofa and watch it together  :wub:

I remember getting a pirated Photoshop back when it was version 4 ($400 legal copy @ Microcenter)...loved it so much I bought the full version off Adobe clearance bin for $125, and bought legal copies until version 7....pass on CS coz I still suck at Photoshop  <_<

I had an opportunity with Crysis & Total War: Medivial 2, but I was too paranoid to for that big file to d/l on my HD.  Good thing Target had a clearance sale on Crysis for $20-24-something and TWM2 for $14. :yes:
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