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Thoughts On Piracy

Started by WhiteKnight77, Sep 03 2008 05:04 PM

#21 MONOLITH

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:06 PM

You guys are all aware of what John has gone through to get this studio off the ground.

And next year, when all this effort comes to fruition, no one here could imagine it being 'justifiable' to steal a few copies of Ground Branch and screw him out of a few bucks, that he rightly deserves.


Just because some other company has been around longer and is bigger, doesn't make it any different.



Don't spend too much effort on this thread fella's. It won't be around long.
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#22 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 07:34 PM

:shakes head: Now I have to defend the reasons why I posted this.

I posted this due to past discussions here about piracy and gaming and why devs and publishers are moving away from developing/publishing for certain a certain platform. It was not about who pirated what or will pirate what. I posted this as in interesting take on someone who is affected by piracy, even if just movies. He gave all the reasons why people pirate and we all know we have heard said excuses and that is exactly that, an excuse.

I intend to support BFS by buying the games. Early on, I may have been a bit naive, but that didn't last (it was only one game that I borrowed to install and it didn't even run :wacko: ). If I really want to hurt a developer or publisher, I just do not buy the game or product. Sure, it may only be a few bills, but it is a few bills that they are not getting from me. If others did the same, it really would impact the publishers worse than piracy.
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#23 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 09:26 PM

...besides I'm getting a free copy of SG/GB due to the numerous TecniCAT support I've provided :whistle:
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#24 }SkOrPn--7

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 10:46 PM

WhiteKnight77 he owns a video store and I bet that he isn't squeaky clean either because I know for a fact that video stores are given preview copies of up coming releases. These releases are given out so the store owner can watch the movies and make a decision on the number of titles they wish to purchase and place on shelves for the consumer.  

I bet this guy does like everyone in this industry allows his family and friends to watch these previews so his high moral ground is in my opinion on shaky grounds. Your not allowed to show/lend out these previews as there for your eyes only so again someone preaching about piracy is behind the scene breaking the law himself more than likely...........

Sure he's effected but it's the pot calling the kettle black to preach on a public forum about piracy issues and more than likely doing as I have said with previews.  <_<

#25 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 12:07 AM

I used to read reviews, specially on PC Gamer/MaximumPC to determine if the game is worth it.
Lately, if the sentence begins with "....you can ran all bells and whistles on Voodoo Blackbird..." I'm out!

Andy Manhood is the only one left in that staff that I really pay attention to.

I subscribed to these magazines coz they gave me access to the game demos and apps.  I had dial-up for a very long time, hence, never bothered to learn torrents...plus never took the time to learn how it works.

Now, mostly I go by actual gamers reviews, screenshots and movies....I know one of these days I'll definitely get ArMa due to squad_e's movies, GRID due to Rocky & squad_e movies.

I'm like one of those ppl that made comment; I'm too deeply involved and passionate with my gaming, I'd dishonor them if I pirate them.

I'd be cheating myself if I ever pirate SG/GB on my rig that I spent many hours researching, learning to OC, bugging Aldous, }SkOrPn--7, Spectre65  3-4 in the morning, and spent freezing in my garage pulling and installing rivets just so I can be Ground Branch Ready.
Saint with his trip the PX to get my Eagle/Globe/Anchor.

Up to now, ppl at work ask me why I bring my laptop to work so I can watch my movies on lunchbreak vs watching them online...and I tell them, I can't stand pirated copies coz whoever this dude who's recording movies in movie theaters always bring his friend who has respiratory problems, always coughing over the camcorder they snuck underneath their jackets, and the third guy who keeps switching seats and blocks the view.
ARRRGGG can't stand those clowns.

I think its healthy were discussing this problem.

Another thing too, I've converted at least 2 console players to PC ever since I've joined the GB-bandwagon :thumbsup: I told them about John's humble beginning, and I tell them to support him and his staff when the game eventually comes out.

I had a point but I forgot...I'm rambling...back to my LOLCATS
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#26 MONOLITH

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 04:23 AM

View PostWhiteKnight77, on Sep 4 2008, 09:34 PM, said:

:shakes head: Now I have to defend the reasons why I posted this.



Sorry WK, my comment wasn't directed at you. I do understand what your intent is, and it's a valuable discussion, I agree.

We can discuss piracy, of course, but somewhere along the way, someone will always post comments that borderline support the act of software theft. That's why these conversations get extra attention and warnings.

Did it happen in here yet? Well, yes...

View Post}SkOrPn--7, on Sep 3 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

I have no issue with anyone going down the try before you buy method with that company they don't support there consumers nor there game


That one's pretty clear.

And no offense Skorp, I'm not looking for a conflict nor do I really wish to single you, or anyone else out; but that is your now publically posted perspective. And the very statement being promoted here is entirely against our forum rules, and more importantly, simply not something to allow to be openly promoted at the website of a software developer. Particularly one who respects the right of all developers and publishers to not have have their property stolen, and not liking a company is not an excuse.

Again, please don't take this wrong, or respond with hostility; it's just obvious that your quote is the one to use for an example.


Yes, we can discuss piracy, when the intent is a good one.

We will not have public posts here that promote piracy, for any reason. And it's almost impossible to have one  without the other.


I'm going the extra mile to be tolerant and understanding here; please meet me half way.


Please and Thank You.
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#27 }SkOrPn--7

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 06:01 AM

No offence taken MONO I'm no angel as you can tell but I do buy and support those I have dealings with. However as you can tell if I have issues that developers will not address or cut the consumer off then to get the product I paid for to work I'm also happy to slip into that murky grey area to find fixes as stated above to which I'm guilty of doing because many of the fixes are made by the hackers. It's true it's a sad state of affairs when hackers are the ones who can solve many of the issues that the original developer find too hard or abandons it's consumers leaving them high and dry. If it wasn't for the hackers I would be $100 out of pocket as there the ones who fixed the communities pay ware aircraft so while you can scold these guys and point fingers sometimes these guys are your answers to solutions. Even that French company used hackers handy work to get there product working but got busted in the process.

I'm not fond of the idea when I say "I have no issue with anyone going down the try before you buy method with that company they don't support there consumers nor there game" but I turn a blind eye to folks that go that step further when a company has a very bad track record of deliver fixes or a working product out the box to test the waters before laying out there hard earned $$$. I just don't touch those games or software any more and they get negative feed back when people ask questions about things I'm happy to tell it like it is.

Those that preach the bible on piracy but in fact many of those that do that never stop too think have they ever visited the grey area or have they copied movies from the idiot box so there little Mary/Johnny can be amused/entertained. Working long ours there are times I can't make it home so I either ask or set my equipment to record programs off TV or get others to do it for me then I pick up the DVD and watch what I missed and yes I visited that grey area and broke the law I admit I do it no point hiding it.

I much prefer to be honest and open in my thoughts and dealings with touchy subjects than be misleading and pretend I'm a perfect angel. Like I said the link WhiteKnight77 placed up I really find it hard to swallow that he isn't doing as I explained above but again it's more than likely has not occurred to him that what he is also doing is grey area and for what it's worth can be placed under the banner of piracy.

Anyway I understand where your coming from and using me as an example and I can handle that so no offence  :thumbsup:

#28 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 11:38 AM

I love you guys :wub:
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#29 MONOLITH

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 01:29 PM

View Post}SkOrPn--7, on Sep 5 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

No offence taken MONO I'm no angel as you can tell
Those that preach the bible on piracy but in fact many of those that do that never stop too think have they ever visited the grey area


Thank you for a calm response.

I'm no angel either, nor am I preaching.  

Been to the grey are plenty of times myself.   :whistle:


Never claimed I haven't been; all I'm saying, is we can't discuss doing it, in this forum.  

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#30 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 08:14 PM

Yes, I know the guy is in the video rental business and yes, he probably gets free movies and such. Is it wrong to show them to his family? I don't know. Most likely not.

As far as taping TV shows and movies to watch when you get home (time shifting) along with the DVRs offered by cable and satellite companies and even TiVo, it all falls into Fair Use tenets and doctrines that was established years ago under copyright law and when movie companies tried to sue VCR manufacturers (my memory is vague on this as it has been ages since they came out) and tape companies and reestablished when DAT was released. Now if you give away or sell said tape or DVD (if you own a DVD recorder), then you have run afoul of copyright infringment laws and are in the piracy realm.

Many of us are old enough to remember vinyl albums and even 8 Track tapes or worse, reel to reel tapes. How many of you shared your tapes and albums to be copied by your friends. We all did it, yet it wasn't a big thing. Record companies didn't sue people for infringement (part of the fact is they got a cut of blank tape sales), just like movie studios got for video tape, yet when the internet became a big thing, the RIAA and MIAA got all up in arms due to the ease of sharing and worse, not getting their cut like they did for blank tape sales. Times haven't really changed, but the way of sharing has. Looking back, was it right to let a friend borrow an album or tape to copy? No. Are we guilty of piracy? I want to say yes. Did we learn from it? Maybe, hard to say.

Still, is it right to pirate movies, songs or software (games or otherwise)? No and no amount of excuses make it right. As I said in my previous post, if we really want to hurt a publisher or developer, do not buy said products and implore your friends to not buy from the companies and give the reason why. Better yet, go to their forums and tell them why you no longer will buy their products and let them know you are telling everyone you know to not buy from them. Then have friends post that they do not intend to buy either. While not all companies will get the picture, those that care about their bottom line enough and wish to stay in business will get the message.
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#31 charliebrownau

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 08:29 PM

View PostBota:16, on Sep 4 2008, 01:21 AM, said:

When developers/publisher quit making AAA games for PC, we will only have the PC culture to blame.  Until there becomes an almost failsafe form of DRM, then this problem will not go away.  UBI has gone as far as purposely putting critical bugs in the release of a game and then offer a patch the day of release.  There was some news on this recently for Assasin Creed.

Actually it might be really good for PC gaming if the current companies STOPPED
releasing commerical half competed buggy supportless games and a new
generation of new companies released games instead .
Time for the old companies that blame piracy and have small minded ideas
to step aside and a new batch of games to arise

#32 }SkOrPn--7

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 08:24 AM

View PostWhiteKnight77, on Sep 6 2008, 03:14 AM, said:

Yes, I know the guy is in the video rental business and yes, he probably gets free movies and such. Is it wrong to show them to his family? I don't know. Most likely not.

Yes it is wrong it clearly states at the beginning and a number of times on the screen during the movies. Trust me there is plenty of legal jargon and warnings on those previews. Even I was breaking the law I allowed my staff to take them home but they had to sign the book and movie out only for overnight and had to be returned for work next day signing in again.

No matter how you look at it your wrong in your actions for doing it but it comes under that big huge murky heading that is rife in all dealings/business called................ Perks of the trade. No matter what you do or how wrong something is perks of the trade is one big murky area that gets abused.

You are right theft is theft and no matter what slant you place on it or grey area we are breaking the law and like you I too have shared music/movies or taped from old real to real and 8 tracks. I have even passed on my game disks and CD Keys when I have finished with games to family members to use because I'm no longer going to be involved with the game and don't want it any more so yes doing that I have broken the law but I'm not going to stand up and say the stuff that guy has portraying his innocence knowing he is a guilty as me.

#33 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:05 PM

With the recent revelation that Ubi will be developing it's own DRM system for furture games and the fact that they had done this too, I found this article from play.tm, Eidos catch out Batman: Arkham Asylum pirate interesting. This is a very interesting way to tell if a game is pirated and to "deny" support to those who do pirate games.

Thoughts?
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#34 krise madsen

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:44 PM

View PostWhiteKnight77, on Sep 19 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

With the recent revelation that Ubi will be developing it's own DRM system for furture games and the fact that they had done this too, I found this article from play.tm, Eidos catch out Batman: Arkham Asylum pirate interesting. This is a very interesting way to tell if a game is pirated and to "deny" support to those who do pirate games.

Thoughts?

It's funny for sure, but it doesn't really work in the greater scheme of things. It'll make the first couple of pirates look stupid (which is always a good thing), but no more than that. Operation Flashpoint did something similar (turning the character into a seagull in pirated games).
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First John Wayne dies in 1979 and then 2 years later the Smurfs show up on NBC. It has been mostly downhill after that.
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#35 BOTA:49

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:15 PM

And ArmA/ArmA 2 have a similar setup with FADE.  It causes the game to act strange (like your weapon being so inaccurate that you can't hit a guy 5m away).  Interesting idea, but it still sometimes hits actual paid for copies once in a great while.

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View PostSwedish_Seb, on 01 March 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

And as usual, their opinions are as valid as their grammar.


#36 galzohar

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 06:47 PM

The FADE in Arma 2 is pretty much official. That is, everyone know it is a part of the game. Of course it doesn't stop piracy, it only makes the pirate's job harder (game works! Let's upload it! After a few days: Oh wait, it fades, need to crack some more) and makes people who use pirated copies less happy and sometimes actually buy the game to save themselves the trouble (as long as they understand it's copy protection rather than think the game is just f-ed). The primary thing that makes people actually buy the game, though, is the CD-key protection, as you can't play online using the same CD-key that the pirated versions use. Heck you can't even patch the game without applying some tricks.

When it comes to Batman, though, nobody knows if it really is a copy protection or a simple bug with the pirated version that was later claimed to be a copy protection. We'll probably never know either unless the company admits it was a true bug with the pre-release leaked pirated version.


I think if game companies want to reduce piracy, they have to cater to the right population. That is, the ones that would play the pirated version if it's as easy as buying the legal one, but would pay if the legal version gives stuff that the pirated version doesn't, be it via not having to go through an annoying cracking process, or better, simply give better service to those with the legal version. Best examples would be Diablo 2 and warcraft 3 (battle.net), but Arma 2 and World of Warcraft are also decent examples.


Regarding movie piracy, the biggest thing I don't understand is why movies aren't distributed in a way that makes them at least as easy to watch as the legal version. To be honest, right now even if movie rental, movie tickets and/or all TV channels were absolutely free it would still be more comfortable to download the pirated copies a lot of the time. They could at least work harder to give you a way to get a faster download if you pay (and if it's already available, then publish it in a way that people will actually know about it even if they have the google skills of a cow).

Edited by galzohar, 20 September 2009 - 06:49 PM.

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#37 krise madsen

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 03:04 PM

This is something I found rather interesting in this context.

In Denmark, an ex-army special ops operative has written a book about his exploits in Afghanistan and Iraq. As per usual, several newspapers printed exerpts of the book prior to release. This apparently caught the Danish Ministry of Defence off guard, as they shortly thereafter sent a letter to all major newspaper editors asking them not to mention the book any futher while they tried to get an injunction against its publishing, citing national security concerns.

One newspaper responded by printing the book in its entirety. It also showed up on WikiLeaks (where I read it). In other words, at least a hundred thousand people read it.

Despite this, pre-orders of the book has gone through the roof, moving it to the top of the bestseller list.

A book is not the same as a computer game, of course. Still, food for thought.

EDIT: An article about the case can be found here. (in English).

Edited by krise madsen, 29 September 2009 - 03:05 PM.

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Hatchetforce said:

First John Wayne dies in 1979 and then 2 years later the Smurfs show up on NBC. It has been mostly downhill after that.
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#38 Nemesis

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 04:45 PM

,,,,its all just copyright infringements no matter what the media/medium :-)
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#39 vadimnk

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 04:53 PM

I find FADE an interesting way of preventing Piracy.  Heck what they could do is let the person play the first mission then block it off, so it would work like a demo.

Now the problem I find with Demo's is, there have been plenty of games where demos were 200 times better then the real game.  A demo is like a commercial, where they will show the best parts of the game, but ignore the bad.

I would say what Unreal group does is pretty effective, which is similar to what RvS did.  Unreal guys keep track of every CD key they ship out, thus you can't use key gen's to play online.  This is a great solution, but has problems too.  One main problem is Once the servers are turned off because the game is 10 years old, your screwed.

I'm honestly surprised Raven Shield servers are still up, but Iron Wrath ones were taken down, probably is the same for Athena Sword.

I do think that most games should be no-CD too.  Requiring a key to play would help keep this working.  Either way I buy things I enjoy, aka I own R6's up to AS, two RVS's at that.  Everything else above that is not worth even downloading.
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#40 vadimnk

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 05:30 PM

Oh I forgot to mention, about the Book that got popular by "piracy" from the news paper companies.

If you look at Windows XP and Mac OS, they have very interesting piracy preventions.  Like Microsoft released the Genuine advantage program, which just peacefully tells you your copy is pirated.  I think they know that a lot of people know about Windows because of the piracy rates, especially in other countries.  So instead of just stopping the publicity, they kindly tell you to please purchase a legitimate version.

Also if you look at Mac OS, they don't even have a Serial Key.  As advanced as OS X is, I'm sure it wouldn't take them long to implement it.  Give it a few years and once Mac OS becomes more popular they will start including copyright measures.

Now being a "developer" or more correctly a modder, I do respect others' property more.  I've spent days worth of hours modding and learning RvS, and even though my "product" mod is not shareware, I would hate for someone to steal the code and release it as theirs.
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