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Best Personal Defense Weapon(s)

Started by Grendel, Jan 31 2010 02:47 AM

#21 Grendel

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 12:33 AM

I feel that I have the common sense to realize that going for a handgun while being entangled is a stupid idea.  In a theoretical "I'm being wrestled to the ground" scenario, I'd go for the soft spots, trying to inflict as much pain as I can to escape.  If the gun comes into the equation, it's because I'm making sure he doesn't remove it from the holster and use it against me.  Once I can get away from that altercation, and gain enough space to buy the time needed to deploy and fire, I would do so.

Good hand-to-hand defense courses are $200 per course.  So yes, they are quite a bit more expensive than spending $20 to rent some guns, and paying $20 for a box of ammunition.  Once money starts flowing like water, I'll get right on the $200 courses.  For now, we'll rely on wits and a weapon.  It's obviously better to be completely prepared, but it's just not in the cards.

It's better to be a UFC fighter with a handgun, than just 'some guy' with a handgun.  But that ain't the case, here.

I realize that martial arts and a proper hand-to-hand training regiment is a great asset.  I realize that being able to properly disarm someone of their weapon, or the proper procedures for getting out of any holds of physical altercations is a great defense.  Unfortunately, it's an asset I cannot afford to spend much time with, at this time.  I'll do all of the research I can on my own (reading, watching videos and asking friends), but I simply can't afford to be taking $200 classes every week.  A little bit of common sense and the means to put someone down is more than what I have now (which is simply my wits).  I'm extremely mindful of my surroundings, and have an eye for suspicious activity.  I know that I shouldn't take my sweet time when getting into my car at night, and that I should check my surroundings before operating an ATM.  I know that I shouldn't go jogging at the park at night, carrying nothing but my iPod and my cell phone.  It's common sense.  That is more than what your average person has.

I appreciate the concerns, and they are duly noted.  You are absolutely correct, and I've mentioned previously that I understand this.  But this isn't about theoretical scenarios, nor is it about the politics of owning and using a weapon.  I'm simply asking for advice on a purchase that will fit my needs.
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#22 zack991

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 12:55 AM

View PostGrendel, on Feb 1 2010, 01:33 AM, said:

I appreciate the concerns, and they are duly noted.  You are absolutely correct, and I've mentioned previously that I understand this.  But this isn't about theoretical scenarios, nor is it about the politics of owning and using a weapon.  I'm simply asking for advice on a purchase that will fit my needs.
Agreed we all have our wish list of things we want to do and I have had the great opportunity to do most of those things in the military and other classes i paid for on my own. In your case with your time and cash be tight(whos pocket book aren't tight today.) I would say that OC spray I listed is your best bet. As for a cheap quality pistol would be Glock or Springfield XD. you can find both new around 400 and up. Carry the mace when you can't carry the sidearm inside a waist band holster and you will be good to go. A ccw is a must, I would not adivic over carry just yet even though it is perfectly legal in almost every state.

A good compare video on top of the line pistols which fall into what you looking for can be found here.



#23 jwp1223

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:42 AM

View PostGrendel, on Jan 31 2010, 10:24 PM, said:

I like the M9, but it's just a tad bit too large.  Wearing it on the hip, I could do it.  But this is going to be in an underarm holster.

Do you own a P226?


I did own one, I sold it a while ago...I carry a 1911 for my personal side arm.

But I liked having the P226...just a tad small w/the grip...I'd have to shoot it practically one handed most of the time.
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View PostWhiteKnight77, on 16 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

When the trolling memes start appearing, you know you have stepped over the line and lost all credibility.

#24 Snowfella

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 04:38 AM

This coming from someone without any "real" training in either self defence or concealed carry other than regular army service.

Think I have to echo first the idea of any non-lethal "weapons" as likely being a bad idea, sure a tazer or maze could come to some use but by the time either of those 2 are within range your likely to be toast anyways against a committed attacker. Add in the fact that thick clothing likely would hamper any use of a tazer and the fact that maze/teargass isn't foolproof, I've seen ppl cope and function with even military grade teargass filling a room to the point of it being a hazy blurr.
Same really goes for a firearm aswell, you let a perp with the intention of taking you out of the game close enough to you and you are really not going to have time to draw before he's within knife or fist range. A straight out attack against you from a close distance (15 to 20 feet) is just to darn fast for you to have time to react and deploy either a lethal or non-lethal weapon in order to defend yourself.
I got to test it several times during guard training and got taken out each and every time before I had time to deploy my weapon, be it holstered sidearm or even a rifle in a low/ready position. The best chance I had in those situations was using physical force, either just forget about the sidearm and meet the attack with hand to hand or use the rifle to block the attack before backing away and trying to find enough space to use the sidearm/rifle.

So some form of defensive hand to hand cource would likely be a very handy thing to have, it could just save your life, and a sidearm is a great defence/deterrant aslong as you pick up the threath early enough to use it or can back away enough to give you the space to deploy it in.
I'd happily join the CCW fraternity if I could but with laws down here being what they are I'm not even legally allowed to carry my tiny swiss armyknife when I'm out and about so I've instead adopted a defence of always being aware of my surroundings, never really let go of that after my deployment to Bosnia in 1997, so any perp would be hard pressed to get within 20 feet of me without me having noticed and made plans. And 9 times out of 10 those plans are backing away from the threat in order to either give me enough space to make a run for it or find something to use in a mele fight.

As for an underarm holster, again from someone who's never had an option of carrying concealed or practiced it, it's kinda a bad idea in my mind. You'd be locked into a form of carry where you'd always have to be wearing an open jacket or shirt in order to get to the sidearm with a minimum amount of hassle. If you are going to carry then set it up in a way that you can carry the same way be it freezing winter or scorching summer! Hip or index carry would be alot more suitable as you can manage that even when wearing just a t-shirt and shorts, I'd go for hip/side but that's just because I'd rather not have a firearm stuck down the front of my pants where a careless move could result in having to pee out of several holes for the rest of your life.  :'(

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#25 Grendel

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:18 AM

Well, the problem with hip holsters is that they're always visible.  Kind of defeats the purpose of 'concealed'.  And luckily, I don't live somewhere where I have to worry about scorching summers and totally freezing winters.  It's very moderate, weather-wise.  So it's not uncommon to wear a light jacket, all year round.

But with going to work with it on, I'm sure some idiot would freak out and call the coppers.  Eventually, the police would probably ask if it'd be too much trouble to conceal it to cause less panic and so forth.  Concealed is less than ideal for a quick draw, but it's the only way to go to avoid causing a panic.  I don't live in Texas, where you see tens of people at a time, pistol on the hip.

So far as other holsters are concerned: are there any decent ones that can safely (and comfortably) hold a nice handgun with a lamp or laser attached to it?  It's usually quite dark out.  I carry a torch on me at all times, but the last thing I want to worry about 'in the moment' is pulling out my light as well.  Are there any tac-harnesses that are worth a damn, or is it better to just shoot with a naked gun and hope for the best?
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#26 Whisper_44

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:37 AM

IWB Holster is your best bet for Concealed Carry, altering your dress to accomodate the draw, coupled with appropriate training, will meet your requiremements..

I use a Milt Sparks for both my 1911, and my G19.. if you want a laser, and a light I'd consider Crimson Trace grips, these will allow you more IWB holster options, and a standalone light with proper technique over anything weapon mounted.

Then Train, Train, Train, and Train some more.. shooting a weapon from retention is a perishable skill, and difficult at best when done on a square range, never mind under stress. It might also be good to have some kind of attorney on speed dial, just in case things go badly and heaven forbid you actually have to use your weapon.

#27 Thoramir

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 04:39 PM

View PostGrendel, on Jan 31 2010, 10:02 PM, said:

Yeah, thanks for the suggestions, guys.  I'm probably going to head down the range and rent a few handguns to test them all out.  I've been eyeballing the SIG Sauer P226 for a while (recommended by a friend).  I haven't been obsessing over buying a new weapon for a while, so I'm a bit behind on the features of all the models.  Are there any P226 models with external safety?

P226 is a great firearm. I own one in .40 and I wholeheartedly recommend them. However, they are a full-sized pistol, not the ideal carry piece for most people. There are some P226es that come with an external safety (I believe they are also Single Action Only), but I think they are all designed to be target pistols. I know an external safety seems comforting but between carrying cocked and locked SAO and carrying a DA/SA pistol I'd take the double action every time, and apparently so would most police departments.


These P226 X5 models are SAO (except the Allround). I haven't priced them but I'm pretty sure you'll pay out the nose for an X5. Also unlike most current P226 models, they don't come with a rail (you mentioned you wanted one).

http://sigsauer.com/...x?categoryid=38

Edited by Thoramir, 01 February 2010 - 05:07 PM.


#28 Thoramir

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 04:59 PM

View Postjwp1223, on Feb 1 2010, 01:42 AM, said:

I did own one, I sold it a while ago...I carry a 1911 for my personal side arm.

But I liked having the P226...just a tad small w/the grip...I'd have to shoot it practically one handed most of the time.

Jwp, you're the first I've heard say the grip on a P226 is too small. Most say they the standard grips are pretty fat, and I've got  wood grips which happen to be really, really fat (good thing I've got long fingers).

View PostGrendel, on Feb 1 2010, 11:18 AM, said:

But with going to work with it on, I'm sure some idiot would freak out and call the coppers.  Eventually, the police would probably ask if it'd be too much trouble to conceal it to cause less panic and so forth.  Concealed is less than ideal for a quick draw, but it's the only way to go to avoid causing a panic.  I don't live in Texas, where you see tens of people at a time, pistol on the hip.

Open carry is actually quite illegal in Texas, even for CHL holders. The only people I see with firearms on their hips are cops, sometimes you see a lot of them, but I've (probably fortunately) yet to see tens of police officers at a time.  :lol:

For the record IWB = inside waistband. The gun rests on the hip (or near it), but it is still concealed.

Edited by Thoramir, 01 February 2010 - 05:13 PM.


#29 jwp1223

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 08:58 PM

Thoramir...I have HUGE hands...I mean...HUGE...when I would do a weaver or modified weaver stance, I had to worry about slide catch with my hands a lot with pretty much any weapons...its not the thickness its the length of a weapon for me....That's why a 1911 is perfect because the grips are long.
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View PostWhiteKnight77, on 16 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

When the trolling memes start appearing, you know you have stepped over the line and lost all credibility.

#30 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 10:58 PM

View Postjwp1223, on Feb 1 2010, 09:58 PM, said:

Thoramir...I have HUGE hands...I mean...HUGE...when I would do a weaver or modified weaver stance, I had to worry about slide catch with my hands a lot with pretty much any weapons...its not the thickness its the length of a weapon for me....That's why a 1911 is perfect because the grips are long.

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#31 jwp1223

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 12:10 AM

LOL...just got bear paws from my father side of gene pool
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View PostWhiteKnight77, on 16 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

When the trolling memes start appearing, you know you have stepped over the line and lost all credibility.

#32 Grendel

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 03:37 PM

What's a fair price for a dealer to charge for a P226 or similar SIG Sauer?  It seems like they range from $800-$1k.

Now I remember why I stopped buying guns...
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#33 jwp1223

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 03:52 PM

That would be about right Grendel 800 to 1K *mainly in the 800 range*
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View PostWhiteKnight77, on 16 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

When the trolling memes start appearing, you know you have stepped over the line and lost all credibility.

#34 Thoramir

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 02:41 PM

View PostGrendel, on Feb 2 2010, 03:37 PM, said:

What's a fair price for a dealer to charge for a P226 or similar SIG Sauer?  It seems like they range from $800-$1k.

Now I remember why I stopped buying guns...

In the current market I that sounds about right for a new P226 (depending on where you live).

Mine was about $1000 but I bought an elite model because I like wood grips and night sights. I'm neutral on the beavertail, but I lot of SIG fans don't like them.

I think you could get a P239 (not sure what you consider similar) or SIG Pro for substantially less money.

#35 Whisper_44

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 02:47 PM

Quote

I think you could get a P239 (not sure what you consider similar) or SIG Pro for substantially less money.

:thumbsup:

#36 Grendel

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, $800-1k is a little steep.  I'll look into the other SIG handguns, and probably go with something a bit more affordable.  Hopefully, my local range has a few that I can test fire.  We'll find out tomorrow.  :thumbsup:

Thanks for the suggestions.
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#37 Thoramir

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:34 PM

View PostGrendel, on Feb 3 2010, 03:39 PM, said:

Yeah, $800-1k is a little steep.  I'll look into the other SIG handguns, and probably go with something a bit more affordable.  Hopefully, my local range has a few that I can test fire.  We'll find out tomorrow.  :thumbsup:

Thanks for the suggestions.

I also wouldn't rule out used SIGs. SIGs that have been taken care of can last a very long time.

Here's a link on lubrication that also goes over frame condition from a gun smith that is very well known for his work on SIGs.

http://grayguns.com/...r-pistol-rails/

#38 Grendel

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 11:44 PM

So...

I had an offer on a SIG Pro SP2022 that I almost couldn't refuse.  Still thinking it over, actually.  The only thing stopping me is that I have not yet handled or shot one (no shops have it here, and it's ###### me off).  I think the SIG Sauer is an awesome platform, but I'm worried that my hand may not fit it perfectly.  Also, I'm a lefty, and very few guns are ambidextrous.  The mag release can be switched to the right side (I like using my left thumb for mag release), but everything else is on the left side of the gun.

Now, I got to handle a ton of guns today.  I loved, loved, loved the H&K P30, H&K 45 and the SIG P226 E2.  They melted in my hands, and I felt more comfortable holding those firearms than I ever have with any other guns.  The .45 and the 226 E2 were over a grand, each.  ###### that noise.  The P30 wasn't for sale, but they had it at the rental range (both P30 and P30L).  Both felt amazing, and left an impression with me.

My questions are:
  • What's a fair asking price for the H&K P30, new and used (I realize there's an 'H&K Tax'), and is it cheaper to buy online (probably, but where from?).
  • How important would you say it is in firing a handgun that you're completely and utterly comfortable with?  If a gun feels a little 'too big' in your hands, is that a total deal-breaker?

I realize that the second question may sound a bit 'stupid', so allow me to rephrase if it doesn't make sense.  "How important is it, for a gun to perfectly contour to your hands?"  The H&K P30 feels natural and perfect in every way.  Ambi-controls, Pic rail, the works.  I can safely say, with confidence, that I could operate that thing in the dark and under stress.  The only thing I don't like about it, is that the Tritium sights do not come factory and I don't know who sells them for this model.  Stupid importation of radioactive materials rules...  

Nearly every other gun (with the exception of maybe two others) gives me that nervous feeling of "######, I hope this doesn't slip out of my hands when I fire it", because the grips are just so uncomfortable.  I doubt I'd ever be able to operate many other handguns as naturally, without looking at the side controls.  I know that I'm buying a weapon, not a sex toy; but damn, some handguns are just amazingly counter-intuitive and uncomfortable to hold.  Each slide release is located in a different spot; some mag releases are not within quick reach.

I find that I much prefer the European design (lever mag release on the trigger guard) to the standard American 1911-style button release.  I find it much easier to slide my thumb down the guard, than I do, using my trigger finger to push a button (most releases are on the left side -- thankfully, at least some can be switched).

I wouldn't say that I have 'stubby' hands, but I definitely don't have basketball player digits.  Overall, my hands are probably completely average.

Advice?  Is there some other magical gun out there that meets my criteria?  Is it worth paying twice as much for the perfect handgun?
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#39 Snowfella

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 07:34 AM

View PostGrendel, on Mar 25 2010, 04:44 PM, said:

Nearly every other gun (with the exception of maybe two others) gives me that nervous feeling of "######, I hope this doesn't slip out of my hands when I fire it", because the grips are just so uncomfortable

I'd say that just about sums it up mate. Unless you are 100% comfortable with the gun in a non stressed situation you'd be likely to stuff up if the proverbial fertilizer hits the fan, I've experienced that firsthand from such a small change as an armourer stiffening up the safetycatch on my service rifle.
Had if been a real deal situation rather than just a flipping drunkdriver misstaking brake from accelerator and accelerating towards the checkpoint I was pointman in I'd likely would of ended my days as a zastava hood-ornament, and had that safety not been "adjusted" he'd likely would of ended his days ventillated rather than in a ditch at the side of the road as my perviously trained in light flick of the safety just didn't disengage it that time. Was a puckerfactor moment of epic proportions when I pulled the trigger and nothing happened!

On the other hand though...a firearm that doesn't feel a 100% right at the range that very first time could be trained in to feel right with a little bit of practice! That's provided that it isn't all to far out of your comfort range to begin with.

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#40 Whisper_44

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 08:14 AM

Quote

I hope this doesn't slip out of my hands when I fire it", because the grips are just so uncomfortable

Most guns have after-market grip treatments, some even as simple as 'skater' or 'grip tape', which I've used, on my Para with great success, it's larger grip, left me feeling the same way, some grip tape, gave me a much more secure purchase.

Quote

Is it worth paying twice as much for the perfect handgun?
I would say 100% yes to this answer, especially if you want to carry it, and possibly defend your life with it.




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