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Building PC

Started by Psychomorph, Sep 22 2010 04:23 PM

#1 Psychomorph

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 04:23 PM

So I want to build a PC. Buying one is to expensive as you often get (and pay for) more than you ask for (i.e. I have Win7 from my [recently deceased] laptop, have an external HD for data such as pictures and music and stuff [so the build in HD would be for games and programs], etc).
I thought about doing it as I had it with my laptop, where I can surf the net on sofa, but then plug it to a monitor for gaming. That was great, but a gaming worthy laptop is way to expensive compared to a desktop counterpart (and I could buy a very cheap laptop later).

I know here are a couple of threads with the same topic, but most are older, I'll browse them anyway later.

Ok, it would be best if I'd need to spend about 800€, but I guess I won't get far with that budget, so I would be ready to raise it up to 1000€, but not more. That's why I need only the most necessary. Things like the CPU and graphic card need to be very good, other parts, like the case, can be cheap.

"Hawt deals" that apply to NA are probably no use for me, so I'd need hardware suggestions and buy the stuff in my area, or the internet.


I am totally clueless (will do research on my own, but for now I just make this thread), so what are the most necessary components that I need? And of course I welcome ask for suggestions.


What would be the best way? To go to a dealer and let him build the rig for me, plus installing all the software (and making me a CD/DVD with the software for the hardware)? But the dealer will ask money for the service and Amazon often sells stuff cheaper than any store (I quit shopping in stores long ago because of this, same stuff, but cheaper at Amazon).
And I kind of would prefer to order online and have Amazon shipping the stuff to me, instead of to go to a dealer (and pay more at the end). Of course, the problem is that I'd need to assemble it on my own, but I upgraded my old PC often enough (with HD's, RAM and cards), and also upgraded my laptop from Vista to Win7 by making a software CD to install the software for the hardware components, so I think I can handle this (with your help :D).


So, would you suggest ordering online and building by myself is the way to go with my limited budget? And is it realistic to expect to get a really good gaming rig, that serves me for about three years, for 800€ (1000€ if really necessary)?

------

Ok, what do I need?

- Case (preferably very silent fan)
- Mainboard
- CPU
- RAM
- Graphic Card
- Sound Card
- CD/DVD Drive
- USB (or does it come build in with the case?)
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#2 Bota:16

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 05:11 PM

cyberpowerpc.com
ibuypower.com

If you were to just need a mobo/processor/GPU/RAM I would say buy it in pieces, but since your are essentially starting from scratch I would recommend one of them.  I've priced cyberpower and newegg for a complete PC myself a couple of times and they come out pretty close with newegg usually being a tad cheaper, but you have to build it yourself and hope you don't screw something up.  And spending another $50 is worth it to me to have someone else do it.  With cyberpower/ibuypower they build it and test it.  I've know plenty of people who order a bunch of computer parts only to have a defective stick of RAM/cpu/gpu/power supply/etc.  So they have to RMA the defective piece and wait for a new one to arrive.


Start with a pre-configured PC that is close to your budget and then you can upgrade/downgrade different components until you get what you want.  If you have a general idea of what you want just use the Intel Configurator.

BOTA:49 said:

I'm sorry, but that's the equivalent of the Kool Aid guy jumping through my wall, me replastering it, and then the Kool Aid guy jumping back in again. It doesn't make me want any damn Kool Aid!


#3 Psychomorph

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:34 PM

Thanks Bota:16, I'll look into it. Your links are North America though, some good offers there I see, but shipping might be a problem, so I think I stick to my local dealers.

I can read not much into it :(, but would the experts among you take a look into these? And rate the specs:

Without OS, the pricing is very good (500€), but they seem a bit outdated:
Black Edition AMD AM3 Phenom II X4 955
Q9505 Intel Core2Quad

Win7, more up to date I guess, good price (800€), but I guess not the best either:
PC - CSL Gaming-PC Husky - QuadCore
KCS Gamer-PC 184130 AMD PhenomII X4 955

You can just scroll to "Produktbeschreibungen" to see the specs.

These look neat (less than 900€):
i7 Gamer 5850 Raptor EVOLUTION - INTEL i7 870
i7 Gamer GTX470 Raptor EVOLUTION - INTEL i7 870 - same as above, but GeForce instead of Radeon.
8GB RAM GTX 460 USB 3.0 INTEL CORE "i7 870"
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#4 Bota:16

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 10:49 PM

Oops didn't realize you were from across the pond.  

I would definitely go quad-core.

Option 1:

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD3
Processor:  i5 760 or better
RAM:  Dual Channel, 4GB+ (Use Win7 64-bit)
GPU:  Radeon 5850 (min)
Soundcard:  Give on-board sound a try, you might be surprised.  You can easily add it later if you don't like it.  I recently switched from a card to on-board and I am happier with it.  Unless you plan on doing music creation or using your PC as a HTPC a sound card isn't really necessary as on-board sound has come along way in the last 4 or 5 years.
Power Supply:   Since you can only have one video card, nothing over 650W, unless you plan on powering a space heater off of it.  
PC Case:  Mid Tower (Antec, Lian Li, Cooler Master).  Whatever suits the look you want, Lian Li is a bit on the pricey side though.  
DVD Drive:  Pretty much any major brand they are dirt cheap relative to everything else.
USB:  Some (most) cases have USB jacks on the front/sde/top that plug into extra USB jacks on your motherboard


Option 2:

Motherboard:  Sabertooth X58
Processor:  i7 930 or better
RAM:  Triple Channel 6GB
GPU:  Same as above, with a potential to add another in the future for Crossfire
Soundcard: Same as above
Case:  Same as above
Power Supply:  850W to be on the safe side if you ever do crossfire/SLI.  GPUs keep getting hungrier and hungrier for juice.
DVD Drive:  Same as above
USB:  Same as above.

BOTA:49 said:

I'm sorry, but that's the equivalent of the Kool Aid guy jumping through my wall, me replastering it, and then the Kool Aid guy jumping back in again. It doesn't make me want any damn Kool Aid!


#5 Nemesis

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:25 AM

I would recommend buying online & building yourself if you have the confidence to do it. Its NOT hard!
1,000 Eu isnt a bad budget & you should be able to get a reasonable rig running. As for longevity thats a bit hard to speculate as it really all depends on how far up th ladder you climb & how much longer the ladder will become in years ahead.

Personally I would get a decent Dx11 gfx card if your looking at a gaming rig so I would start looking at that first check its specs, price etc. Then start looking at what CPU. Quad Cores are reliable but the iCPUs are new & resilient but its balancing performance vs cost. How many games today recommend iCPU & how many will in the future?!
Once you have the gfx & CPU resolved....next is the mobo & Ram. I would look at DDR3 (12600...I think it is - basically your looking for 1600Mhz Bus speed as 1066Mhz will become redundant whilst 1333mhz is more common today. Again this is relative to yourr CPU + mobo choice also). If you get a mobo with integrated sound if your using headphones it will also save a few bucks on a sound card as lets face it...its not like your plugging a 7.1 surround system in...which you can always do later anyway.
Also you mention Win7... I guess this is the 32 bit version as it only supports a max of 4GB Ram...so its pointless to buy more.
As for CD/DVD/BR drives...I just bought a LG drive which is CDR/DVDR but BR read only. I dont plan on burning Blue Ray at the mo yet till its mainstream.
As for the case.. What cooling method air or liquid...if a fitrst build I would recommend air as water can be tricky & pricey. Get a  case with adequate cooling fans already fitted if you can it saves on worrrying about power supply connections for the mobo. Also you`ll nede a power supply...deopendant on what your plugging into the system overall a 600W is a fair mainstream PSU especially for todays hardware. Also your going to need a harddrive. All of the hardware should be SATA2 so check the mobo for enough SATA2 connections. In addition watchout for PCIe Amps required from the power supply some are 24amps some are 32amps...your gfx card will need a specific ampage to run it correctly.
Dont worry about USB as the mobo should support external USB connections & most cases today have USB ports for connecting up. The leads etc all come with either the case or the mobo, dependant on what you get. One thing worth noting is front vs rear USB. If your plugging stuff via USB constantl in & out then front is obviously more benificail..however if its for a once in a "blue moon" then rear will befine...its just an acessibility thing  & personal preference.

Heres a link to a UK supplier that works well online & I have found to be VERY reliable & reasonably priced but I dont know if they are any good for yourself. A good place to look for a one stop-shop also.
http://www.misco.co.uk/

...turns out they also have a Euro partenrship
http://www.misco.co....idepartners.asp

Wherever you go I certainly would recommend shopping around for the best price. For example I saved myself £70 (approx. 100Eu) on my GTX470 gfx card simply by going with a lesser known dealer.

Word of Warning: "Buyer Beware!" - cant say this enough if it looks too good to be tue it either is or needs validating....contact the supplier if possible & double check making sure the supplier is a reputable dealer !!

I hope it helps in some way :thumbsup:
PS: a coupleof other things you didnt mention.

LAN - should be on the mobo.
Wireless...Are you cabling from a router to the box or plan to go cable free. You may need a wireless PCI card if required.
Backup....Do you need a second harddrive for RAID or a simple backup solution?
Keyboard/Mouse.....?
Monitor.....?
Regards
Nemesis

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#6 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 07:06 AM

build it!!!!

you got enough ppl here to walk you thru it.  :thumbsup:
plus there's magazines that has plenty of pictures...not words...that would show you where to put things and how to connect them.

if I was to build FIRST TIME, I would get either cases:

HAFX or HAF932
Lian Li PC-A70FB Alumiinium Full Tower Case

full tower gives full room to play around with your components and doesn't cut off any good airflow.  The A70FB is scary expensive for a beginner, but this case is all aluminum, keeping it light and act as a cooler.

if I was to replace my case now:
Corsair Obsidian 800D for hot-swapable HD since I tend to hoard LOLCAT pics in my HD so fast I need new HD almost 7-9 months.
Corsair TX 650W....just make sure its the quiet PSU....I read not all 650W are quiet.  Don't worry about the take off noise.  Just cut down on the coffee, you'll get use to it.  :thumbsup:

since it's your first build I suggest ATI DX11 card....less power consumption, already has stable drivers, price:performance is better than current nVIDIA.
CANNOT OVER EMPHASIZE!!!! Don't use the drivers that comes in the CD's packed with vidcard.  Download the latest from card manufacturer or ATI websites instead.

as Nems said, since it's your first build, not sure what you'll need for 16-32GB on Memory for Win64-bit.  I still can't find a reason to switch to 64-bit....maybe my Photoshop and Movies????  Do you fancy some Photoshopping Psychomorph?
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#7 Psychomorph

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 07:17 AM

Thank you Bota and Nemesis, helps me to get into it.

Ok, so I made a research and put up a list:

Mainboard (same as Motherboard?)
ASUS P6X58D-E (1366 Intel X58, DDR3, USB 3.0, SATA, 6Gb/s, ATX)
[210,00€]

I believe with on-board sound, as it has sound, etc plugs on it. I use head phones and don't hear that much music on the PC. I will buy a sound card later if sound wont be good enough.

CPU
Intel Core i7-930 Quadcore-Processor (2,80GHz, 8MB L3-Cache, QPI DDR3 LGA1366)
[278,48€]

GPU
Zotac VGA GeFORCE GTX 465 (PCI-e, 1GB GDDR5, HDMI/DVI, 1 GPU)
[199,99€]

Is that even a good graphic card?

RAM
GEIL 4 GB DDR3-RAM PC1333 CL9 2x2GB KIT2
[73,80€]

I decided to stick with 4GB and stay with my Win7 32bit for now and upgrade later if needed.
Is 4GB RAM fully acceptable for today gaming? Note that I use a Dell 27" with the resolution of 1920x1200.

DVD
LG GH22NS50 SATA BLACK 22x
[20,71€]

Decided to go with DVD only, I may upgrade to Blu Ray later. This one is cheap and reviews confirm to work with any CD/DVD.

WLAN
Asus PCE-N13 PCI Express (1x Wlan, 802.11n, 300 Mbit/s, Low profile, Wps Configuration, Mimo Technology)
[31,20€]

Most probably will use WLAN only and might upgrade to a LAN card later. Not exactly cheapest (I might stick with a cheaper), but has good reviews and is 300 Mbit/s any useful?

Tower
Xigmatek Tower ATX Midi
[35,46€]

It is praised to have the fan at the front, is that any good?

Power
DTK Combat Power (750 WATT Passive PFC CE ATX)
[39,90€]

Good price and has good reviews, but is 750W any necessary? Perhaps a good investment for the future.


Tower Alternative
Sharkoon Rebel-9 Value ATX
56€, has this large fan at the side, better alternative?


Tower + Power Alternatives
LC-Power 7010B
LC-Power 653B
Both are 420W though, I guess not that great.



Without the alternatives I came to the price of 889,54€. I guess not a bad deal considering the MB/CPU/GPU combo seems quite high-end (no?), the other components are the cheaper part to keep the overall price lower.

Is the list complete? I guess I'll need to buy more cables (can I use the power cable from older PC's, since they are compatible?)

Monitor/Mouse/Keyboard all available, so no problem.

Nemesis, are you sure a noob can assemble the parts? As said, I installed drives/RAM/cards on my old PC and have a little clue, but so much can go wrong, I'm not sure.
What about installing the software for the hardware? I guess every hardware component has a CD shipped with it. Do I need to burn an installation CD, or is it ok to install every component separately with the original CD?

If building the PC is to difficult I might call a specialist (these guys are expensive though), or just bring it to a computer store and ask them to do it.


Edit: Forgot Hard Drive, will do later.
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#8 Bota:16

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 08:14 AM

i7's are triple channel memory, typically you can get memory in 3GB, 6GB, 12GB or 24GB.  If you want to use dual channel memory, stick with the i5's, they are cheaper and the P55 motherboards are cheaper.  Also you can get the 64-bit version of Win 7 from Microsoft for free if you already have the 32-bit version.  Just need to pay the shipping of the dvd (you might be able to download as well).  I did it with Vista a while back.

For the video card I would suggest the XFX Radeon 5850.  Their warranty is awesome if you register your card with them.  It's a card with a good bang for the buck.  

With Win 7 the drivers for just about everything will auto-install, at least capable enough drivers to get up and running.  Then you can go to the manufacturers website to download the latest ones if needed.  Though really the only you would need to do this with is the GPU.

BOTA:49 said:

I'm sorry, but that's the equivalent of the Kool Aid guy jumping through my wall, me replastering it, and then the Kool Aid guy jumping back in again. It doesn't make me want any damn Kool Aid!


#9 Nemesis

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 09:13 AM

With the case I have this one (just bought few days ago)
http://www.amazon.de...0...4166&sr=1-3
...it comes with 3 inbuilt fans & fan speed controller system all with power connections to a single Molex connector. Its also got the 3 in 1 cradle & is a snap to work on. Its worth th extyra 30 Eu IMHO only. The one you are looking at is just a plain shell.

Compare the 460 for the 465 ?!
http://www.nvidia.co...buy_now_uk.html
....maybe a money saver...both are DX11 compatible.
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#10 Nemesis

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 09:26 AM

View PostPsychomorph, on Sep 23 2010, 02:17 PM, said:

Is the list complete? I guess I'll need to buy more cables (can I use the power cable from older PC's, since they are compatible?)
The kettle lead... yes you can use an old one so long as its in good condition & seats well in the power supply :thumbsup:

Quote

Monitor/Mouse/Keyboard all available, so no problem.
Nemesis, are you sure a noob can assemble the parts? As said, I installed drives/RAM/cards on my old PC and have a little clue, but so much can go wrong, I'm not sure.
Honestly I could get my 12yr old son to build a PC nowadays...just bear in mind the basics...Power & ElectroStaticDischarge.

Quote

What about installing the software for the hardware? I guess every hardware component has a CD shipped with it.
Yep & 90% of the crap that comes on the disks you probably wont need anyway. Just need the drivers mainly & Win 7 takes care of most of that for you.

Quote

Do I need to burn an installation CD, or is it ok to install every component separately with the original CD?
No need. Build it all up....bung in Win7 CD/DVD & away you go :) Just follow the steps :)

Quote

If building the PC is to difficult I might call a specialist (these guys are expensive though), or just bring it to a computer store and ask them to do it.
Dont!
Please trust us there are enough here to help you & its saves you money PLUS educates you :thumbsup:

Quote

Edit: Forgot Hard Drive, will do later.
...er...yep you`ll def need one of those :) PS: dont worry about floppy drives :-) :-)


Id say the hardest part you will have is probably the Wireless Lan configuration dependant on what security you want & your external setup ie: modem/router/gateway etc

NOW would be a goiod time to ask what method of net connection do you have..ADSL, SDSL, Cable, SatLink or other?!

Quote

Most probably will use WLAN only and might upgrade to a LAN card later. Not exactly cheapest (I might stick with a cheaper), but has good reviews and is 300 Mbit/s any useful?
LAN is prebuilt on the Mainboard/Motherboard/Mobo anayway...so if that is your preference then you dont need the WLan card :thumbsup:
better product spec on Aamazon Uk page as... "Mein Deutsch ist scheisse"! :-)
http://www.amazon.co...S...5943&sr=8-2

PS: http://www.amazon.de...e...2320&sr=8-1
...you going to need to either use the stock heatsink & fan that comes with the chip...if one comes supplied else Id recoomend getting a decent one! DONT forget thermal grease/compound also...unless you use the stock fan stuff as it should already be there :)
Regards
Nemesis

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#11 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 12:05 PM

Those cases you have chosen, read the reviews if it will take those video cards, the are still plenty mid-size cases that barely fits videocards nowadays.

It's going to be cramp in there. Make sure air flow is good.
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#12 Nemesis

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 02:16 PM

View PostCpl Ledanek, on Sep 23 2010, 07:05 PM, said:

It's going to be cramp in there. Make sure air flow is good.
+1
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#13 Psychomorph

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 03:04 PM

@Bota:
Ok I'm convinced, I go for the Radeon 5850, because I read very good reviews about it and it is said to be very silent, which I need.
I found the "Sapphire Radeon HD5850", it is like 50€ cheaper than the XFX, but you say they have good warranty, where can I check on that? I guess the Sapphire would do it to, no?

I think you're right, I can upgrade to 64bit, so I think I can go for 6GB DDR3.

As for the MB/CPU. Are the i5/P55/4GB-DDR3 up to date? I mean I want to run ArmA2 on max and would like to do it with games in the next 9 months at least (a year even). Perhaps i7 is not much better today, but has more longevity? Sorry for back asking again, but I'm kinda confused. I want it cheap, but don't want to find out that I can't even run games at max that are released in 6 months.

@Nemesis:
I have ADSL, its a router.

You say the MB has already the sound and LAN on board? I have a WLAN USB stick, and used it before (works good), so I might save the money for now and stick with it.
Good acceptable idea?

Oh and "Power & ElectroStaticDischarge"... I think I'm screwed already. :P But your son will help me out then, I hope. :D

Your tower suggestion looks good, has the controls on top front, actually what I need, I think about it.

@Ledanek:
What if I just let the side of the case open, good for airflow or bad cuz of "dust flow"? And what do you mean "mid-sized", they seem quite standard-large to me, are there larger ones?

Btw, your tower suggestions would make me bankrupt. :D


Current state

GPU: "Radeon HD5850"
MB/CPU/RAM: to be decided, either i5 (4GB RAM and appropriate MB with sound and LAN on-board), or i7 (6GB and appr. MB) - need help on this one
HDD: to be decided, but must be "SATA-2", no? Just do me a favour and pick one on Amazon :(
DVD: "LG GH22N550"
CASE: possibly "Xigmatek Utgard", but if there are better suggestions out there, lemme know.
POWER SUPPLY: to be decided. Probably still the "DTK Combat Power (750W)".


By the way, I thought about having two HDD's, one for dual boot (Win7 and XP) and second for games (third is my external 500GB [very old though, but works]) for data that I could access on another computer). What is a good size for dual boot OS HD, 100GB ok?
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#14 Nemesis

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 03:25 PM

View PostPsychomorph, on Sep 23 2010, 10:04 PM, said:

You say the MB has already the sound and LAN on board?
Yes

Quote

I have a WLAN USB stick, and used it before (works good), so I might save the money for now and stick with it.
Good acceptable idea?
Yes

Quote

What if I just let the side of the case open, good for airflow or bad cuz of "dust flow"? And what do you mean "mid-sized", they seem quite standard-large to me, are there larger ones?
Desktop/Mini/Midi/Tower. Your looking at Midi. Led is talking about Tower :)

Quote

So I will think about the tower then, but what would you suggest, min 600W?
anything above 450W :)

Quote

HDD: to be decided, but must be "SATA-2", no?
Yes

Quote

POWER THINGY: to be decided, what's the min requirement?
By the way, how do you call this energy/power thingy (the one that is like 600W)?
See Above. Thingey = PSU...(Power Supply Unit).
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#15 Psychomorph

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 03:31 PM

Already figured out it's called "Power Supply" (yay for stealthy Donator edit :D :D), thanks anayway.

As for HDD, plz just pick one from Amazon for me. :(


Oh and sorry if I repeat questions, to much information to deal with at the moment, hehe.
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#16 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 03:36 PM

You can get instructions on how to build a PC anywhere on the net. MaximumPC Online also has build a PC guides that are easy to follow and even have lists of parts for 3 different budgets of PC. Morph, you can build one just like I did when I built my first PC 19 months after I bought my first PC.

Youuuuuuuuuuuu can dooooooooooooooo it Nickie.
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#17 Psychomorph

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 03:40 PM

View PostWhiteKnight77, on Sep 23 2010, 11:36 PM, said:

Youuuuuuuuuuuu can dooooooooooooooo it Nickie.
I willllllll! I'm full of confidence, before the first fail  <_<
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#18 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 04:51 PM

I'm running with both side doors open, keeps it cool.

Mid-size cases used to be a problem with vidcards that are longer.
Maybe not a case since most cases are longer now.
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#19 Bota:16

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 05:01 PM

The i5's are very similar to i7's when it comes to gaming, they are just cheaper.  Also the X58 (i7s) motherboards are quite a bit more expensive than the P55 (i5s).  So it's kind of a double hit when you want an i7 processor.  If you don't plan on doing Crossfire/SLI you really don't need a X58 mobo.  i5's are plenty capable at pushing enough data to a single GPU to not be a bottleneck.  With the X58 motherboards and i7s you will never get your money's worth unless you are using 2 or more GPUs.  The X58 chipset is made specifically for "enthusiasts" who like to eek out every ounce of performance of their hardware by overclocking.  

Also there are P55 motherboards that have 1 PCI-E x16 and 1 PCI-E x8/ slots (the x16 slot gets "downgraded" to x8 if you are running 2 GPUs) for Crossfire/SLI.  X58 motherboards have 2 or more PCI-E X16 slots.  Recent benchmarks show no real performance gain in games when you have 2 gpus running on x16 slots over 2 gpus running over x8 slots.  

Personally I think X58 motherboards are a waste of money.  I don't run more than one GPU nor do I overclock anything.  But if you want this to be a beast for the next 3 years, then an i7 system may be what you need.  You never know what type of games will come out in the next 3 years.  

I have a P45 motherboard, E8400 C2D processor, 4GB RAM, Radeon 4870 and I haven't played a game that I didn't have enough horsepower to enjoy the game.  I built it 2 years ago.

BOTA:49 said:

I'm sorry, but that's the equivalent of the Kool Aid guy jumping through my wall, me replastering it, and then the Kool Aid guy jumping back in again. It doesn't make me want any damn Kool Aid!


#20 Cpl Ledanek

Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 05:36 PM

I tried SLI & I came to the conclusion that, if it's not tax deductible, or your sponsored by a PC component company, or already have 2-3 monitors, is a waste of money.
You could crunch and help some cancer research facility, maybe that will justify it.

I'm same page as Bota:16 with our current board.
Maybe there's savings there. :thumbsup:

Get the best Thermal paste (CPU) you can afford, or ask someone who is willing to share.
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