[Ermac]

I don't remember if this was brought up or not, but will GB allow shooting with no iron sights?

[Jsonedecker]

You mean like hip or "snap" shooting?

[RileyFletcher_01]

I don't think there's ever been a shooter than didn't allow that...I mean, it would be impossible not to allow that if you wanted to be realistic, not being able to shoot while standing still.

[Ermac]

Jsonedecker, on 22 April 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

You mean like hip or "snap" shooting?

Either one. Just being able to fire the gun without looking down the sights.

[galzohar]

There was a big discussion if not more than one already, but of course we never had an official word on how it will actually work. As in, what will determine your chances of hitting the target when firing without using the sights.

[Jsonedecker]

Yes, but it will still be a deliberate action... not because your weapon sits off to your side aimed all the time.

[Ermac]

Jsonedecker, on 23 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Yes, but it will still be a deliberate action... not because your weapon sits off to your side aimed all the time.

To play the devils advocate, I imagine in GB your player character can aim and shoulder his rifle, and aim down the sights non stop without getting fatigued at all or having to give his arms a rest which we know is impossible in real life. Such things reminds us that it's still a game. What ever system might be in GB, I hope it's quick and instinctive. It wouldn't be very fun to get killed because of your characters slow reflexes.

Edited by Ermac, 23 April 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[Jsonedecker]

Yes, shooting is quick and instinctive.

[RileyFletcher_01]

And please, no limited time on aiming. Imagine you're watching a guy through your sniper scope and are about to press the trigger. Oh wow, I automatically put down my rifle and lose my target. If anything, have a good sway as you breathe, and maybe increase the longer you aim as it gets harder to hold it up. In real life, if your adrenaline is pumping and you're in the middle of combat, you'll ignore the need to rest.

[SiC-Disaster]

The problem is if you start ignoring too many factors due to 'adrenaline'  you end up with a shallow shooting mechanic simular to COD or BF3. You can't make it too much of a twitch-based shooter, which it will become if you start to ignore too many factors due to that adrenaline. It might be more realistic because soldiers in combat experience it in real life, but does it lend itself well to a realistic gameplay experience is the better question.

[jwp1223]

SiC-Disaster, on 24 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

The problem is if you start ignoring too many factors due to 'adrenaline'  you end up with a shallow shooting mechanic simular to COD or BF3. You can't make it too much of a twitch-based shooter, which it will become if you start to ignore too many factors due to that adrenaline. It might be more realistic because soldiers in combat experience it in real life, but does it lend itself well to a realistic gameplay experience is the better question.

Just so you know, just because it's quick and instinctive, doesn't mean you're going to hit what you shoot at. It's not going to be COD of BF3, you'll actually have to practice and practice and practice to get it just right. You'll be walking along and all of a sudden you have a tango, you shoot, but you could miss. So you'll have to fire another round or twelve.

[RileyFletcher_01]

I didn't mean to just be this machine that can aim with zero sway for hours on end, but it would be incredibly annoying if your scope just went down every once in awhile.

[galzohar]

NORG says that since in real life holding your weapon up for too long has consequences, then it should have consequences in-game too! Not some magic "your 10 seconds are up! Weapon down!" BS, but something more realistic like losing stability over time etc.

[Ermac]

SiC-Disaster, on 24 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

The problem is if you start ignoring too many factors due to 'adrenaline'  you end up with a shallow shooting mechanic simular to COD or BF3. You can't make it too much of a twitch-based shooter, which it will become if you start to ignore too many factors due to that adrenaline. It might be more realistic because soldiers in combat experience it in real life, but does it lend itself well to a realistic gameplay experience is the better question.

I'm not trying to say to make it like a twitch shooter. John's post seems to  imply that to be able to shoot without iron sights, it does not simply involve a mouse click like the majority of shooters and tactical shooters out there, he makes it seem like there's an extra step involved.

Edited by Ermac, 24 April 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[galzohar]

Ermac, on 24 April 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I'm not trying to say to make it like a twitch shooter. John's post seem to  imply that to be able that shooting without iron sights does not simply evolve a mouse click like the majority of shooters and tactical shooters out there, he makes it seem like there's an extra step involved.

To me it looks like a hint that your weapon won't always be pointing forward, which makes sense and sits well with my previous post, and is also demonstrated in the kickstarter trailer video to some degree.

[RileyFletcher_01]

galzohar, on 24 April 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

NORG says that since in real life holding your weapon up for too long has consequences, then it should have consequences in-game too! Not some magic "your 10 seconds are up! Weapon down!" BS, but something more realistic like losing stability over time etc.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at when I said

'and maybe increase the longer you aim as it gets harder to hold it up'

I'm glad your weapon won't always be raised either, that was really unrealistic.

[SiC-Disaster]

Ermac, on 24 April 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I'm not trying to say to make it like a twitch shooter. John's post seems to  imply that to be able to shoot without iron sights, it does not simply involve a mouse click like the majority of shooters and tactical shooters out there, he makes it seem like there's an extra step involved.

I realise that, and it wasnt my intention to imply that anybody was asking to make GB a twitch shooter
I'm just saying that if you end up leaving out too many things affecting your ability to aim it might turn out that way, and in that sense people have to be careful of what they are asking for.
One of the better examples would perhaps be Project Reality for Battlefield 2. The act of shooting a weapon doesn't feel very realistic to me as shots seem to miss more than they would in real life, it seems as if they have abstracted several things concerning the usage of a weapon. But the end result of everything they did is that firefights actually do take place in PR unlike, say, Red Orchestra where actual firefights are something of a rarity.
So while RO's shooting mechanics might be a lot more realistic than the shooting mechanics of PR, PR comes closer to an actual firefight than RO does.
The example of COD or BF3 might not have been the best to use haha, but they were the first things to pop into my head.

@Riley, I can't think of any game that would force your weapon out of ironsights without the player's input, and I'm fairly sure there will never be one (at least I hope there won't )
Something along the lines of the Red Orchestra: Ostfront style of aiming would be the best, I think.
In old RO the longer you hold your weapon up in ironsight mode, the more tired your arms become. As a result, sway becomes increasingly worse over time. On top of that, ironsight sway was bound to the amount of stamina left. If you exhausted yourself while sprinting then there would be a big sway effect right at the start when going into ironsights, but if you took it slow you'd be far better able to take aim properly.

And yeah, it looks as if there is a specific 'low-ready' state when looking at the ingame trailer, and it's awesome.
I always wondered how that transition would have looked in Rogue Spear if it would have had first person weapon models, considering the third person animation had the characters walk around in a low-ready state most of the time and they largely 'snapped' up if they started firing. When standing still characters would sometimes have their weapon pointing down, too. I'm sure it must have been an interesting design process