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Mil-Sim?

Started by Paine, Jun 20 2012 06:34 PM

#1 Paine

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:34 PM

A lot of people have said it, GB's ethos is spot on with what has been lacking in FPS and gaming in general.

I wonder though, is it possible to be too mil-sim, to the point of limiting fun?

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#2 Jonathan Conley

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:38 PM

View PostPaine, on 20 June 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

A lot of people have said it, GB's ethos is spot on with what has been lacking in FPS and gaming in general.

I wonder though, is it possible to be too mil-sim, to the point of limiting fun?

Nope.

We're not asking you to traverse 30+ miles, on foot, to an engagement.  We're not modeling "War", we're modeling intimate conflicts with small groups of infantry.  You're not going to have to clean your gun, or eat, or peel potatoes.

It's all about the combat, and how realistic and immersive it feels.

If anything, it will be the first time you're actually excited about firing a virtual gun in the past ten years.

#3 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:40 PM

Welcome to the forums and I hope you have pledged to help BFS meet it's stated goal so the game can be made.

Now to address your concern, it all depends I guess. I don't think GB is trying to be the mil-sim that say ArmA or ArmA II is. Sure, GB has or will have better animations than those two and will feature open arena type combat, but it will also feature CQB. Think of it as smashing Rainbow Six into Ghost Recon. Both were of the Tac-Sim variety, but they were fun to play. They may have been somewhat unforgiving in certain aspects (run out into the open and get capped in no time), well, GB wants to keep that part of the game. There are many games out there already that allow you to live to see the end of the level, no matter how careless one is. R6 and GR were never like that, yet they were fun, especially once you figured out that slow and cautious were the way to go. GB will be the same.
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#4 SiC-Disaster

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:14 PM

It's sad that many people think that realism can't be fun. If anything it levels the playing field and does away with artificial and frustrating gamedesign and when done right can only improve upon a game. At least in my taste.

#5 V2_Bloodline

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:13 PM

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#6 MurDoc

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:26 PM

It's a shooter without development shortcuts to bring you an authentic immersive experience.
A nature evolution of gaming, sorta what Last of Us is also doing and that stole E3.

#7 zoog

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostPaine, on 20 June 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

A lot of people have said it, GB's ethos is spot on with what has been lacking in FPS and gaming in general.

I wonder though, is it possible to be too mil-sim, to the point of limiting fun?
In general it's possible, but I don't think it applies to Ground Branch at all. Ground Branch really is about realism and authenticity in animations, weapon handling, movement, weapon behavior etc and not realism as in tying your shoelaces or shuffling boxes of ammunition.
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#8 Colin

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 03:08 AM

Where is that video, there was a rainbow video here a day or so ago, it had a guy talk his way through the mission and then he spoke about GB at the end of it, this guy needs to see that video.
Anyone I cant remember where the hell I saw it.



Here you go Pain have look
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#9 V2_Bloodline

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:36 AM

@Colin: here

#10 Colin

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:38 AM

Cheers V2 I did find it I hate to be beaten lol

Cheers mate.
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#11 Paine

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:56 AM

View Postzoog, on 21 June 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

In general it's possible, but I don't think it applies to Ground Branch at all. Ground Branch really is about realism and authenticity in animations, weapon handling, movement, weapon behavior etc and not realism as in tying your shoelaces or shuffling boxes of ammunition.

Glad to hear it. But if the tools we are using are realistic, real-life sim will follow in some fashion. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself, I love playing with a coordinated team up on comms that knows something about smut. However i've seen in other games, i believe someone mentioned arma, too much emphasis on being tacticool; using stuff pulled from field manuals rather than doing what works in game.

It's important to chill and have fun when gaming.

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#12 V2_Bloodline

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 08:17 AM

Paine, what negative aspect of "mil-sim" or "tacticool" that you suspect you will experience in Ground Branch? It would be helpful if you can give specific examples or anecdotes (no doubt from other games that you really wanted to like).

Because I think your concerns, while valid, have already been addressed. Ask John or Jon. I think the rest of us here as can reassure you that it will be a fun game.

#13 Colin

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 08:25 AM

The game is different it will be a tactical thinking mans game that will be fun for those  that wish to play a tactical game.

Other types of game cover the rest of the crowd.

This game is filling a gap left BY Red Storm a gap that needs GB.

If you don't like a game that is tactical in its approach or it has too much NORG then there are other games to play.
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#14 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 10:38 AM

OK fellas, Paine is onboard:


Paine, on 21 June 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I've made a significant pledge, thanks for the info.

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#15 Paine

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 05:54 AM

View PostV2_Bloodline, on 21 June 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Paine, what negative aspect of "mil-sim" or "tacticool" that you suspect you will experience in Ground Branch? It would be helpful if you can give specific examples or anecdotes (no doubt from other games that you really wanted to like).

Because I think your concerns, while valid, have already been addressed. Ask John or Jon. I think the rest of us here as can reassure you that it will be a fun game.

Bloodline, to your question. I worry that we might be forced into specific game mechanics that mirror reality too much, for example in organized ARMA matches, which do need a lot of organization to work, you see player leadership utilizing us army troop leading procedures in planning and execution on an objective, and enforcing the use of, say, proper comms procedures with prowords, passing of SALUTE reports, and other things your average armchair general might learn from reading an army field manual. This sort of thing makes me want to go on a rampage. Games are supposed to allow you to UNWIND and have fun. This isn't the same thing as saying realism does not equal fun. I would say that true top down simulation does not equal fun, though. However, GB doesn't seem to be going from the "big picture" of reality and then creating mechanics to fit that as ARMA does. I just read up on NORG.  

NORG is a great concept, which I am glad finally has a name, that I have seen work to very satisfying ends in mods. Specifically, Project Reality for Battlefield 2. The mod team went in with the objective of making a game that more mirrored reality on a basic level, albeit within the constraints of an engine otherwise inspired. So, a SAW is extremely accurate at medium ranges and fires x rounds per minute that produced a great suppression effect on impact. The result, after a few years of work on a multitude of small pieces such as this, was that gamers who knew little more about tactics and strategy than what one might learn from a hollywood movie started behaving much like an organized team would in reality.  Operationally, structured communication took place in order to bring combined arms to the fight, this element passes intel on an area, that element gets on a transport run by another element, gets inserted and then calls for fire support from some other. Tactically, it forced you to shoot, move, communicate if you wanted to win an engagement. The methods employed at these stages of gameplay might mirror techniques taught in real world theory, but these similarities arose organically and never became a checklist, so it was never work. Oddly enough, what Project Reality did by building on small facts, like what a SAW is capable of, created something that more resembled real world practice of platoon level operations, which is a lot of fun.

I can only imagine what a game would be like at a squad level of gameplay if it truly was built from the ground up.

Ground Branch - Thank You for giving me something to look forward to in gaming!

Edited by Paine, 22 June 2012 - 05:58 AM.

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#16 WhiteKnight77

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:35 AM

It all depends on the simulation. As a flight simmer, I expect planes to be unforgiving if one steps outside of the flight envelope. In a combat type game such as GB, I expect weapons to simulate their real world counterparts and I want characters to move as personnel would, but I want gameplay that is fun and not necessarily regimented as what would be seen in a training simulation such as VBS. I think ArmA is so close to VBS that it loses that fun aspect. From what I have seen, GB will bring back the fun aspect while still simulating weapons handling and movement properly.
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#17 SiC-Disaster

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:12 PM

Do take in mind that only some groups force 'military discipline' with salutes and other non-useful rituals into a play session.
These would be the so-called 'realism groups'. However, take note that does not define realism-based games as a genre.
At Tangodown.nl for instance we try to use real life tactics because they work, and not because we like to roleplay. Nobody has a set rank with the exception of teamleaders that switch around after sessions, based on who feels like taking on that role for the day. There is no leader to salute as everybody, from newly-joined member to staff to founder is equal.
So while some groups my strife to do that, especially in ArmA, it doesn't mean that the entire ArmA community does the same.
At any rate I doubt there would be much room for that kind of stuff in GB anyway.

#18 Jonathan Conley

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:39 PM

The day that we model pointless systems like saluting, military rank, weapon-cleaning, potato-peeling and any other sort of useless simulation, is the day that I chop off my own head, and bowl it down the street.

Ground Branch is about immersive combat, tight controls, customization and teamwork.  For anything else, you've always got the other guys.

Thanks for your support, Paine.

#19 Cpl Ledanek

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:20 AM

View PostJonathan Conley, on 22 June 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

The day that we model pointless systems like saluting, military rank, weapon-cleaning, potato-peeling and any other sort of useless simulation, is the day that I chop off my own head, and bowl it down the street.

I don't know....sounds like a good "Easter Egg Mode" game -within- a game  :)
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#20 Colin

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 07:19 AM

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You bad

GB will be a thniking mans game for sure, but if you want to be a nut case there are other games that allow this very well.
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